Handling

Tyres, exhausts, suspension, strut braces, air filters, brake pads/rotors and anything else for 'dawn raiders'.
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Michael McGovern
Joined: Mon 30 Mar, 2009 21:56
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  M roadster S50
Location: East Sussex

Handling

Post by Michael McGovern »

After my trackday at Brandshatch i have now decided i need to sort out the handling before i go to another track day. I cant believe the amount of cars that were annihilating me in corners, most annoyingly was an r32 and equivalent in audi clothing, i stupidly assumed we were equally matched, well to be honest on the straight i think my car was quicker but on the corners i was not even in there league, i know its down to driver skills etc some what but there was a noticable difference between both these cars and mine. kept up with a new m3 for a good bit, his cornering capabilities were not amazing but stil better than mine, just couldnt match the speed on straights so he eventually got away.

so for the upgrades, standard path seems to be poly bushes and front strut. will this really improve my handling that much? in previous cars iv just fitted coilovers and the handeling has turned from okish to super glue tyres. Whats your thoughts?
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c_w
Joined: Thu 19 Aug, 2004 16:50
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  M roadster S50

Post by c_w »

Problem with the Z3M from the factory is that they were just too soft, both in spring and damping rates. The Coupe is slightly better but not hugely in terms of suspension control. Even general aftermarket lowering springs aren't that much stiffer - just lower.

KW V3 is probably the best answer and some H&R anti roll bars (or eibach roll bars) help keep the car feel more planted. KW prices have rocketed from around £900 to near £1300 due to exchange rate though.

Rear subframe bushes are very soft, you can get "inserts" that fill the gaps in the bushes which is a much easier solution that changing them completely.

Without going to Coilovers only Bilstein make decent replacement sports dampers for the Z3M that will just bolt on ("Sprint"). Koni make adjustable ones but they are inserts on the front so you need to do some DIYing with the front struts.

Strut brace is a finishing touch and won't improve things greatly on its own IMO.
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Gazza
Joined: Tue 04 Oct, 2005 20:58
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  M roadster S54
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Post by Gazza »

What tyres are you using?

I did Brands Indy but cant remember if it was prior to my H&R ARB's.

My tyres were a mix of PS1 rear and PS2 front and the E30 M3's were all over me in the corners but not on the straights :D
Gazza

"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you take the wall with you"

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Michael McGovern
Joined: Mon 30 Mar, 2009 21:56
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  M roadster S50
Location: East Sussex

Post by Michael McGovern »

Falken's, The only good thing about the handling i found is that there was alot of feedback.
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PhoenixCoupe
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Post by PhoenixCoupe »

You'd be surprised how quick the R32 is - especially with a modified Haldex controller.
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spokey
Joined: Fri 20 Feb, 2004 11:11
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Post by spokey »

Honestly, I'd say the the best investment would be some driver training. I've seen a guy in an Alpina B5 outdrive CSLs. :wink:
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jackal on PH wrote:i love your profile... an endless pornographic paroxysm of the letters BMW

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Michael McGovern
Joined: Mon 30 Mar, 2009 21:56
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  M roadster S50
Location: East Sussex

Post by Michael McGovern »

yer i understand the benefit of driver training and i def need some. However, there seems to be a problem with grip, maybe how i drive using this type of grip but either way there is a problem.

I was pushing the car fairly hard, and had instruction on the day also only one session and he was commenting on how easy it seems to want to slide.

so is this my driving or the cars handling?
ohrsome
Joined: Thu 17 Jan, 2008 11:30
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Location: darlington

Post by ohrsome »

In fairness, the sort of people that go to track days are obviously enthusiasts and I think it's fair to say that most cars aren't completely standard so you're not comparing like for like.

Also, is outright lap speed where the fun is? I bet you had more fun in a powerful rear drive roadster than they did in front wheel drive hatchbacks with heavy four wheel drive systems bolted in.
Michael McGovern
Joined: Mon 30 Mar, 2009 21:56
Posts: 194

  M roadster S50
Location: East Sussex

Post by Michael McGovern »

I dont like being overtaken, i had a blast but the handling or my driving isnt good enough. i dont mind giving way to the sevens etc. but other cars id want to give a better fight too, especially if we have comparable engines etc, like i said there isnt a problem with power at the minute and iv partially upgraded the brakes to yellow stuff which i was pleased enough with but handling is a problem. i want to sort this before i do anything else no point in just going fast in a straight line in my opinion.
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c_w
Joined: Thu 19 Aug, 2004 16:50
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  M roadster S50

Post by c_w »

Michael McGovern wrote:I dont like being overtaken.
Unfortunately you need to stop thinking like that - you WILL get overtaken at trackdays! But then that's because there's loads of different specs of cars (Caterhams are the best example as there are some really slow ones and some really quick ones, with different drivers too).

The Z3M has to be driven very smoothly to get the best out of it in standard form BUT I wouldn't like to drive a standard Z3M on track, it's just too soft. Even a Bilstein Sprint kit on my Coupe it still felt far too soft for my tastes on track - it was better than standard but still felt too much roll. Adding the H&R anti roll bars did make a good difference though in confidence. Also, if you swap the top mounts left to right that gets rid of a lot of understeer by adding camber.

As PheonixCoupe said the R32 is not a slow car and out of the box is relatively "better" than the Z3M.
Michael McGovern
Joined: Mon 30 Mar, 2009 21:56
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  M roadster S50
Location: East Sussex

Post by Michael McGovern »

ah easier said than done im no lunatic on the road but in the right place im very competitive, yes i know this isnt meant to be the place to race etc but come on who goes to a track day to just go round and round unless of course you know how quick your car is already and just want to improve lines etc on a particular track.

like i said before i dont mind being overtaken by cars like the sevens e.g all the caterman, westies etc etc but the likes of r32, slk, m3's etc i wanna be able to hold my own against or atleast put up a bit of a fight. if this means upgrading to coilovers thats def something i will do, if cornering capabilities can not be drastically improved i will prob sell the car and get something better equipped. Im not angry i was overtaken as it has shown me the flaws in the car which need to be addressed let hope they can be.
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TonyCal
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Post by TonyCal »

what sort of a lap time were you doing mike?

because i did a novice day at brands a couple of years back in my standard M.
ok was not after breaking the lap record that day, but mine did seen to perform ok.
Michael McGovern
Joined: Mon 30 Mar, 2009 21:56
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  M roadster S50
Location: East Sussex

Post by Michael McGovern »

havnt got a clue about actual times i was a good few seconds faster than a new civic type r, skyline, clio sport. same as an mg. tiny bit slower than an 04 m3 by the end of the day. good few seconds slower than r32 and similar audi.

I wasnt taking it that easy however i was trying my best to what the instructor had told me and what i had seen from youtube vids of pro's. The instructor i had said i had a few problems with some corners whcih i think i addressed to some degree by the end of the track day, my approach wasnt right i was hitting the apex early, he also said i was using gears steering and speeds fine i personally dont believe this tuition for 6 or so laps is that good of a diagnosis of my skills or abilities as this was the first time i had ever driven this car on track and he was with me from my first lap but just letting u know what he said. i personally believe i could of with instruction done corners alot better but my lines and braking were ok in my opinion alot cleaner than some of the others i was there with. most notably the m3 who was braking in place he shouldn't and his line was a bit strange but he was still quicker around the corners.

let me state now im not saying im a race expert, particularly good at finding the line etc etc but i have driven lots of cars and this wasnt what i was expecting with handling.

tony maybe you should come for a spin and see if you notice any problems but to be honest the speed is good its just handling im not happy with.
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c_w
Joined: Thu 19 Aug, 2004 16:50
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  M roadster S50

Post by c_w »

From the sounds of it you didn't do too bad at all. A Clio Sport and Skyline are hardly slow cars on track, and I assume it was Brands Indy which would give a hot hatch like the Clio more chance againt higher powered cars.

I would say it's best to go out on your own on a new circuit to get a feel for the circuit before getting instruction otherwise the instructor thinks he's got lots to say :D - of course anyone could if they're experienced of it and sitting with someone who's never been round a particular circuit!
Michael McGovern
Joined: Mon 30 Mar, 2009 21:56
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  M roadster S50
Location: East Sussex

Post by Michael McGovern »

yer i felt i didnt have a chance to actually use him to the fullest, he also said he had never been in an m version of the z3, he looked a bit worried when i told him 1. id never tracked it before 2. id never been to brands before 3. only had the car a month 4. there is no traction control. 5. its about 320bhp . haaa, it was funny.

to be fair to him he did explain alot about how to approach and handle each part of the track and im sure he was more than capable to realise what to advise with how it was performing. He also said he was thinking about it as an old 911 i dont know what he meant by that but thats how he said he would advise me as if i was driving one.

I will def get tuition after a good few laps next time, and think i might go for open pit next time. saying that i think it would be nice if they did just 2 groups an hour do they do this?
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c_w
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Post by c_w »

I've only been to one trackday that did 2x30min sessions every hour but this is very rare - it was only because the day was sos quiet it gave more track time. Other than the 3x20 format it's usually open pitlane which are much better IMO.
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TonyCal
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Post by TonyCal »

Sure mike no problem with going for a drive a fresh perspective might be just what was needed.

to be honest i was not pushing really hard on the track day i did lap times were around 1:11 (taken off the video) on the indy track, so not fast, was mainly learning the lines etc. The instructor I had on my day, was used the the renault meganes they use for the driver experience days there, In fact he admitted hes more a bike guy. Had him screaming BRAKE HARDER coming into paddock at one time :lol: was really only doing about 100 then was approaching a lot quicker when i was on my own. He had to admit the M had fantastic brakes and acceleration when he got out of it though.

One thing to remember though is the design of the Z3 suspension is probably 20 to 25 years old being from the E30 compact so is bound to be flawed against more modern machinery. A Z4 handles way better than the Z3 because its a modern design.
When I first had a Z3 I attended serveral of the "drives" and had quite a few comments about the way I could stay with the M variants, until they hit a decent straight that is. Then they just left my 140bhp 1.9 for dust but in the bendy stuff different matter. Oh the 1.9 was lowered and had adjustable shocks on it. At one point in France Jay got out and looked for the tow rope because i was never far behind him :lol:
pangster
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Post by pangster »

TonyCal wrote: the Z3 suspension is probably 20 to 25 years old being from the E30 compact
ahh the lesser spotted E30 Compact.. :lol: :lol: :lol: :D

In all seriousness it shares the same rear suspension setup as the E30 M3 which is reckoned to be one of the best handling cars you can drive.. so I don't think it's too shabby.. or at least not as bad as some are trying to make out.. I've certainly not found any issues with it and as others have mentioned maybe money would be better spend on driving tuition courses to make sure you're maximising the cars potential. :wink: :)
Michael McGovern
Joined: Mon 30 Mar, 2009 21:56
Posts: 194

  M roadster S50
Location: East Sussex

Post by Michael McGovern »

yer il def considering driver training i seen one for 300 a day, cant remember where it was now. anyone know someone good?

Also just got a call from hays, have an interview for a good job coming up in a few weeks fingers crossed. Money is good much better the bits and bobs iv been doing recently. I have never wanted/needed a job so badly. If i get it il be splashing out me thinks. wish me luck.
pangster
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Post by pangster »

Michael McGovern wrote:yer il def considering driver training i seen one for 300 a day, cant remember where it was now. anyone know someone good?

Also just got a call from hays, have an interview for a good job coming up in a few weeks fingers crossed. Money is good much better the bits and bobs iv been doing recently. I have never wanted/needed a job so badly. If i get it il be splashing out me thinks. wish me luck.
great news mate!! - good luck! :D
Michael McGovern
Joined: Mon 30 Mar, 2009 21:56
Posts: 194

  M roadster S50
Location: East Sussex

Post by Michael McGovern »

anyone tried fk coilovers? iv had them on a vw years ago and were amazinglitreally transformed the car, but wondering if anyone has experience of them on a z?

they seem to have lots of options available in terms of different varietes and are cheaper than the kw's, i know ther build quality is good too as iv owned them before.
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