Induction kits

Tyres, exhausts, suspension, strut braces, air filters, brake pads/rotors and anything else for 'dawn raiders'.
Mac The Tank
Joined: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 21:56
Posts: 127

  Z3 roadster 2.2i
Location: Brighton

Induction kits

Post by Mac The Tank »

Air filters. What a mine field...
As I enjoy the sound of a straight 6 with the roof down, which air filter do you recommend for sheer noise value? I'm really not obsessed with BHP, just the value of smiles per mile :-)

The simota induction kit gets a mention here and there, but its a lot more expensive than its counterparts - is the cost purely in the carbon?

Is it that much better than, say, an ITG foam filter and a diy carbon (or similar) heat shield? I'm not afraid to design and build a composite heat shield if it'll be worth it.

Mac
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Update 04/14 - 18,702 miles
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GazHyde
Joined: Fri 26 Feb, 2010 21:27
Posts: 1347

  Z3 roadster 2.0
Location: Royal Wootton Bassett

Post by GazHyde »

Just had a Simota delivered. It has the wrong carbon fibre box in it, so I can't fit it permenantly.

However, I test fitted it and made some temporary supports and took it for a good blast. I can confirm it makes a big difference in terms of noise when "driven"! :D

Once I get the correct part, it will be fitted in conjunction with the Eisenmann 'road sport' exhaust I got from the stock exchange.

I'm starting to worry how loud it's my car is going to be :oops:
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hornel Z3M
Joined: Sun 16 May, 2004 20:33
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Post by hornel Z3M »

The best sounding one in my opinion is the K+n exposed filter, had one on my 1.9 and it was a nice sound. :wink: I have the simota now nice but not as obvious.
Mac The Tank
Joined: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 21:56
Posts: 127

  Z3 roadster 2.2i
Location: Brighton

Post by Mac The Tank »

I have read somewhere online that the Simota sounds like a supercharger whine due to the resonance of the carbon? Might have made that bit up though, I've read a lot of BS online recently...

naked filters the way to go then by the sound of it! I feel happier buying both a cotton gauze filter and a foam filter to compare the sound if I had to.

I get to work with carbon fibre parts at my workplace and they are a true thing of beauty to behold... but boy do they cost some!!

Mac
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Topaz Blue 2.2i Y2001 - only 16045 miles on the clock! (2011)
Update 04/14 - 18,702 miles
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Post by Guest »

Mac The Tank wrote: naked filters the way to go then by the sound of it! I feel happier buying both a cotton gauze filter and a foam filter to compare the sound if I had to.
... if you want to suck in nice warm air from the engine (you really want a high quality open filter which has a heat shield)
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Post by Guest »

hannyg2011 wrote:
Mac The Tank wrote: naked filters the way to go then by the sound of it! I feel happier buying both a cotton gauze filter and a foam filter to compare the sound if I had to.
... if you want to suck in nice warm air from the engine (you really want a high quality open filter which has a heat shield)
You dont really need the heat shield, as long as you have cold air going into the engine bay, the warm air is forced through the side gills, that is what they are there for.

The benefit is that you go from a pull air system to a push air system (Forced Induction) as you remove the 2 1/2 foot of air travel on the original air intake, which improves responsiveness and also lag at higher revolutions.

You just need to make sure you have a positive cold air feed. Mine is fed from the centre bumper aperture through an air duct (from demon tweeks) straight into the engine bay, about foot of flexi pipe all together.

If you dont add this feature i can quite understand why people have heat problems and pre ignition.
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Post by Guest »

Evmundo wrote:
hannyg2011 wrote:
Mac The Tank wrote: naked filters the way to go then by the sound of it! I feel happier buying both a cotton gauze filter and a foam filter to compare the sound if I had to.
... if you want to suck in nice warm air from the engine (you really want a high quality open filter which has a heat shield)
You dont really need the heat shield, as long as you have cold air going into the engine bay, the warm air is forced through the side gills, that is what they are there for.

The benefit is that you go from a pull air system to a push air system (Forced Induction) as you remove the 2 1/2 foot of air travel on the original air intake, which improves responsiveness and also lag at higher revolutions.

You just need to make sure you have a positive cold air feed. Mine is fed from the centre bumper aperture through an air duct (from demon tweeks) straight into the engine bay, about foot of flexi pipe all together.

If you dont add this feature i can quite understand why people have heat problems and pre ignition.
I think you'll find the side gills are ornamental and not functional and if you measured intake temps you'd see a noticeable increase between on open filter and an open filter with a heat shield :wink:

I can also assure you that you don't have a forced induction set up on your car :head: people often confuse sound with power....... big mistake
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Post by Guest »

hannyg2011 wrote:
Evmundo wrote:
hannyg2011 wrote: ... if you want to suck in nice warm air from the engine (you really want a high quality open filter which has a heat shield)
You dont really need the heat shield, as long as you have cold air going into the engine bay, the warm air is forced through the side gills, that is what they are there for.

The benefit is that you go from a pull air system to a push air system (Forced Induction) as you remove the 2 1/2 foot of air travel on the original air intake, which improves responsiveness and also lag at higher revolutions.

You just need to make sure you have a positive cold air feed. Mine is fed from the centre bumper aperture through an air duct (from demon tweeks) straight into the engine bay, about foot of flexi pipe all together.

If you dont add this feature i can quite understand why people have heat problems and pre ignition.
I think you'll find the side gills are ornamental and not functional and if you measured intake temps you'd see a noticeable increase between on open filter and an open filter with a heat shield :wink:

I can also assure you that you don't have a forced induction set up on your car :head: people often confuse sound with power....... big mistake
Disagree, mine certainly are not ornaments, and the difference in temperature is certainly not enough to affect performance or cause pre ignition.................on my car anyway
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Post by Guest »

Evmundo wrote:
hannyg2011 wrote:
Evmundo wrote: You dont really need the heat shield, as long as you have cold air going into the engine bay, the warm air is forced through the side gills, that is what they are there for.

The benefit is that you go from a pull air system to a push air system (Forced Induction) as you remove the 2 1/2 foot of air travel on the original air intake, which improves responsiveness and also lag at higher revolutions.

You just need to make sure you have a positive cold air feed. Mine is fed from the centre bumper aperture through an air duct (from demon tweeks) straight into the engine bay, about foot of flexi pipe all together.

If you dont add this feature i can quite understand why people have heat problems and pre ignition.
I think you'll find the side gills are ornamental and not functional and if you measured intake temps you'd see a noticeable increase between on open filter and an open filter with a heat shield :wink:

I can also assure you that you don't have a forced induction set up on your car :head: people often confuse sound with power....... big mistake
Disagree, mine certainly are not ornaments, and the difference in temperature is certainly not enough to affect performance or cause pre ignition.................on my car anyway
interesting? - have you cut the sheet metal away from the bonnet that sits behind the grills? and if so can you provide details as this is the only way you will make them functional :dunce: or maybe you've found a new way to pass air through solid surfaces that will delight and astound the science world? :wink: :lol:
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Post by Guest »

hannyg2011 wrote:
Evmundo wrote:
hannyg2011 wrote: I think you'll find the side gills are ornamental and not functional and if you measured intake temps you'd see a noticeable increase between on open filter and an open filter with a heat shield :wink:

I can also assure you that you don't have a forced induction set up on your car :head: people often confuse sound with power....... big mistake
Disagree, mine certainly are not ornaments, and the difference in temperature is certainly not enough to affect performance or cause pre ignition.................on my car anyway
interesting? - have you cut the sheet metal away from the bonnet that sits behind the grills? and if so can you provide details as this is the only way you will make them functional :dunce:
Jigsaw, Dremel, nibbler...........take you pick, i never did mine and the bonnet is fully painted?
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Post by Guest »

Evmundo wrote:
hannyg2011 wrote:
Evmundo wrote: Disagree, mine certainly are not ornaments, and the difference in temperature is certainly not enough to affect performance or cause pre ignition.................on my car anyway
interesting? - have you cut the sheet metal away from the bonnet that sits behind the grills? and if so can you provide details as this is the only way you will make them functional :dunce:
Jigsaw, Dremel, nibbler...........take you pick, i never did mine and the bonnet is fully painted?
then how in gods name can you pass air through a solid surface? - before you reply.. nip out to your car (suggest you take a phillips screwdriver with you and some needle nose pliers) - remove the one philips screw which holds the grill in and then the seven plastic clips.. pop it off and then close the bonnet and come back and explain to me how your side grills are functional as I feel like I'm missing a trick here :wink:
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Post by Guest »

hannyg2011 wrote:
Evmundo wrote:
hannyg2011 wrote: interesting? - have you cut the sheet metal away from the bonnet that sits behind the grills? and if so can you provide details as this is the only way you will make them functional :dunce:
Jigsaw, Dremel, nibbler...........take you pick, i never did mine and the bonnet is fully painted?
then how in gods name can you pass air through a solid surface? - before you reply.. nip out to your car (suggest you take a phillips screwdriver with you and some needle nose pliers) - remove the one philips screw which holds the grill in and then the seven plastic clips.. pop it off and then close the bonnet and come back and explain to me how your side grills are functional as I feel like I'm missing a trick here :wink:
You missed the trick, I said I had not cut the bonnet, I did not say the bonnet had not been cut.......... :wink:
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Post by Guest »

Evmundo wrote:
hannyg2011 wrote:
Evmundo wrote: Jigsaw, Dremel, nibbler...........take you pick, i never did mine and the bonnet is fully painted?
then how in gods name can you pass air through a solid surface? - before you reply.. nip out to your car (suggest you take a phillips screwdriver with you and some needle nose pliers) - remove the one philips screw which holds the grill in and then the seven plastic clips.. pop it off and then close the bonnet and come back and explain to me how your side grills are functional as I feel like I'm missing a trick here :wink:
You missed the trick, I said I had not cut the bonnet, I did not say the bonnet had not been cut.......... :wink:
no - I read that - you claimed it was functional and aided with cool air, I just wanted to know how you achieved that as stock they are ornamental (and non functional!!!) and you must have surely cut the inner wing as well??
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Post by Guest »

hannyg2011 wrote:
Evmundo wrote:
hannyg2011 wrote: then how in gods name can you pass air through a solid surface? - before you reply.. nip out to your car (suggest you take a phillips screwdriver with you and some needle nose pliers) - remove the one philips screw which holds the grill in and then the seven plastic clips.. pop it off and then close the bonnet and come back and explain to me how your side grills are functional as I feel like I'm missing a trick here :wink:
You missed the trick, I said I had not cut the bonnet, I did not say the bonnet had not been cut.......... :wink:
no - I read that - you claimed it was functional and aided with cool air, I just wanted to know how you achieved that as stock they are ornamental (and non functional!!!) and you must have surely cut the inner wing as well??
No, I have not cut anything, I have said that already, there is a duct through to the vents? do you not have this?
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Post by Guest »

Evmundo wrote: No, I have not cut anything, I have said that already, there is a duct through to the vents? do you not have this?
I'll make it easier for you - can you show me how the air passes through 2 layers of sheet metal:

Image
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Post by Guest »

hannyg2011 wrote:
Evmundo wrote: No, I have not cut anything, I have said that already, there is a duct through to the vents? do you not have this?
I'll make it easier for you - can you show me how the air passes through 2 layers of sheet metal:

Image
In plain Ingleesh for the gentleman, the previous owner has cut the car, there is no vacuum seal on the engine bay, I assume the air, which is not a solid and very flexible, flows through all the gaps and out the vents, not very functional on a blanked off front bumper, but on a flowed bumper and bonnet i assume the air pressure is enough to force some venting at speed, I have no problems with pre ignition or overheating, so i will say they are functional, and less drastic than taking your bonnet off :head:
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Post by Guest »

Evmundo wrote:
hannyg2011 wrote:
Evmundo wrote: No, I have not cut anything, I have said that already, there is a duct through to the vents? do you not have this?
I'll make it easier for you - can you show me how the air passes through 2 layers of sheet metal:

Image
In plain Ingleesh for the gentleman, the previous owner has cut the car, there is no vacuum seal on the engine bay, I assume the air, which is not a solid and very flexible, flows through all the gaps and out the vents, not very functional on a blanked off front bumper, but on a flowed bumper and bonnet i assume the air pressure is enough to force some venting at speed, I have no problems with pre ignition or overheating, so i will say they are functional, and less drastic than taking your bonnet off :head:
I give up :head: :roll:
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Post by Guest »

hannyg2011 wrote:
Evmundo wrote:
hannyg2011 wrote: I'll make it easier for you - can you show me how the air passes through 2 layers of sheet metal:

Image
In plain Ingleesh for the gentleman, the previous owner has cut the car, there is no vacuum seal on the engine bay, I assume the air, which is not a solid and very flexible, flows through all the gaps and out the vents, not very functional on a blanked off front bumper, but on a flowed bumper and bonnet i assume the air pressure is enough to force some venting at speed, I have no problems with pre ignition or overheating, so i will say they are functional, and less drastic than taking your bonnet off :head:
I give up :head: :roll:
Yeah, i win.........
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Post by Guest »

Evmundo wrote:
hannyg2011 wrote:
Evmundo wrote: In plain Ingleesh for the gentleman, the previous owner has cut the car, there is no vacuum seal on the engine bay, I assume the air, which is not a solid and very flexible, flows through all the gaps and out the vents, not very functional on a blanked off front bumper, but on a flowed bumper and bonnet i assume the air pressure is enough to force some venting at speed, I have no problems with pre ignition or overheating, so i will say they are functional, and less drastic than taking your bonnet off :head:
I give up :head: :roll:
Yeah, i win.........
Image

where did the previous owner cut your grills/bonnet about - because it looks like from the above picture not only is your sheet metal still intact - you also have the rubber seals both sides of the engine bay which would mean it's a pretty snug fit to the underside of the bonnet.

Given it's the pony engine you have installed - I would be doing everything I could to make sure I wasn't losing horses for the sake of noise :lol:
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Post by Guest »

hannyg2011 wrote:
Evmundo wrote:
hannyg2011 wrote: I give up :head: :roll:
Yeah, i win.........
Image

where did the previous owner cut your grills/bonnet about - because it looks like from the above picture not only is your sheet metal still intact - you also have the rubber seals both sides of the engine bay which would mean it's a pretty snug fit to the underside of the bonnet.

Given it's the pony engine you have installed - I would be doing everything I could to make sure I wasn't losing horses for the sake of noise :lol:
Thats not my car?
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Post by Guest »

looks like your car:

http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

:roll:

got to be honest and it's a little disappointing.. not only was I expecting to see the sheet metal cut on the wings and bonnet - I was also expecting to see the fuse box and ECU relocated :roll: :lol: :head: :dunce:
Last edited by Guest on Tue 25 Oct, 2011 19:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Guest »

hannyg2011 wrote:looks like your car:

http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

:roll:
No mines black?
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Post by Guest »

Evmundo wrote:
hannyg2011 wrote:looks like your car:

http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

:roll:
No mines black?
better update your signature picture and your profile details then :wink: if you can tear yourself away from your forced induction venturi effected masterpiece :lol:
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Post by Guest »

hannyg2011 wrote:
Evmundo wrote:
hannyg2011 wrote:looks like your car:

http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

:roll:
No mines black?
better update your signature picture and your profile details then :wink: if you can tear yourself away from your forced induction venturi effected masterpiece :lol:
Why, it is a negative shot with HDR rendering, so quite correct as is, a black car in a negative format.............rest my case.

In all honesty the photo of the bonnet up you will notice that you can only see the gills as far as the BMW emblem, if the photo was zoomed out you would see three x 1 inch dia holes drilled in the metal.

Under the K &N Filter is a 3 Inch dia flexi pipe, that goes through the side of the radiator (Past the rubber flap) and down to a 7 x 2 inch oblong induction scoop fixed to the front central aperture of the bumper. I dont think it actually creates a venturi (The Venturi effect is the reduction in fluid pressure that results when a fluid flows through a constricted section of pipe.) as you believe as there is no reduction or constriction in the pipe, but it does ensure that air is forced up to the filter.

Hopefully you have something similar rigged to feed your Simota, or is it sucking against the head light?
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hornel Z3M
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Post by hornel Z3M »

Thats a good point evmundo :shock:
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Re: m

Post by Guest »

hornel Z3M wrote:Thats a good point evmundo :shock:
Thank you for your support it is very much appreciated, to many luddites about.......... :wink:
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Post by Guest »

Evmundo wrote:
hannyg2011 wrote:
Evmundo wrote: No mines black?
better update your signature picture and your profile details then :wink: if you can tear yourself away from your forced induction venturi effected masterpiece :lol:
Why, it is a negative shot with HDR rendering, so quite correct as is, a black car in a negative format.............rest my case.

In all honesty the photo of the bonnet up you will notice that you can only see the gills as far as the BMW emblem, if the photo was zoomed out you would see three x 1 inch dia holes drilled in the metal.

Under the K &N Filter is a 3 Inch dia flexi pipe, that goes through the side of the radiator (Past the rubber flap) and down to a 7 x 2 inch oblong induction scoop fixed to the front central aperture of the bumper. I dont think it actually creates a venturi (The Venturi effect is the reduction in fluid pressure that results when a fluid flows through a constricted section of pipe.) as you believe as there is no reduction or constriction in the pipe, but it does ensure that air is forced up to the filter.

Hopefully you have something similar rigged to feed your Simota, or is it sucking against the head light?
I think you need to do some more Googling.. :dunce:

as for the colour of your car - in your profile you say it's Arctic Silver and in your picture here:

Image

It looks pretty silver to me (as does the engine bay) :shock: the DVLA also have your car listed as silver - maybe need to get that changed as well
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Post by Guest »

hannyg2011 wrote:
Evmundo wrote:
hannyg2011 wrote: better update your signature picture and your profile details then :wink: if you can tear yourself away from your forced induction venturi effected masterpiece :lol:
Why, it is a negative shot with HDR rendering, so quite correct as is, a black car in a negative format.............rest my case.

In all honesty the photo of the bonnet up you will notice that you can only see the gills as far as the BMW emblem, if the photo was zoomed out you would see three x 1 inch dia holes drilled in the metal.

Under the K &N Filter is a 3 Inch dia flexi pipe, that goes through the side of the radiator (Past the rubber flap) and down to a 7 x 2 inch oblong induction scoop fixed to the front central aperture of the bumper. I dont think it actually creates a venturi (The Venturi effect is the reduction in fluid pressure that results when a fluid flows through a constricted section of pipe.) as you believe as there is no reduction or constriction in the pipe, but it does ensure that air is forced up to the filter.

Hopefully you have something similar rigged to feed your Simota, or is it sucking against the head light?
I think you need to do some more googling.. :dunce:
Name calling eh, reached your intelligence level haven't we? God your so anal!

It appears to me that if you have not done something or achieved something it can not possibly be done, something missing in your life?
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Post by Guest »

Evmundo wrote:
hannyg2011 wrote:
Evmundo wrote: Why, it is a negative shot with HDR rendering, so quite correct as is, a black car in a negative format.............rest my case.

In all honesty the photo of the bonnet up you will notice that you can only see the gills as far as the BMW emblem, if the photo was zoomed out you would see three x 1 inch dia holes drilled in the metal.

Under the K &N Filter is a 3 Inch dia flexi pipe, that goes through the side of the radiator (Past the rubber flap) and down to a 7 x 2 inch oblong induction scoop fixed to the front central aperture of the bumper. I dont think it actually creates a venturi (The Venturi effect is the reduction in fluid pressure that results when a fluid flows through a constricted section of pipe.) as you believe as there is no reduction or constriction in the pipe, but it does ensure that air is forced up to the filter.

Hopefully you have something similar rigged to feed your Simota, or is it sucking against the head light?
I think you need to do some more googling.. :dunce:
Name calling eh, reached your intelligence level haven't we? God your so anal!

It appears to me that if you have not done something or achieved something it can not possibly be done, something missing in your life?
Name calling? :? sorry you've lost me - where have I called you any names?
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Jonttt
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  M roadster S54
Location: Liverpool

Post by Jonttt »

Image

This is fun :D

For whats its worth I would never fit an open type filter in a hot engine bay. The heat shield is essential to ensure that no hot air is dragged into the induction.

Thats why carbon is so popular as it has great heat resistance properties and the reason why you car is more powerful on a nice crisp winter sunday morning :D

The ///M's have no fog lights as BMW used one of the aperatures to feed the air filter (to generate more ariflow than the standard Z3's in which air has to pass around the headlight).

So I agree with the commnet that you should always have a heat shield, ideally carbon (you can gold line it as well if you like :D ) but I also agree that on a non ///M you should also create better direct airflow into the filter.

So put both your comments together and I'll agree with you :D
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Post by Guest »

Jonttt wrote:Image

This is fun :D

For whats its worth I would never fit an open type filter in a hot engine bay. The heat shield is essential to ensure that no hot air is dragged into the induction.

Thats why carbon is so popular as it has great heat resistance properties and the reason why you car is more powerful on a nice crisp winter sunday morning :D

The ///M's have no fog lights as BMW used one of the aperatures to feed the air filter (to generate more ariflow than the standard Z3's in which air has to pass around the headlight).

So I agree with the commnet that you should always have a heat shield, ideally carbon (you can gold line it as well if you like :D ) but I also agree that on a non ///M you should also create better direct airflow into the filter.

So put both your comments together and I'll agree with you :D
Jonttt, can't fault your argument, it is all about the cold air feed, perhaps the 6 pots produce more heat and I assume less room in the engine bay too, but to be honest, the air flow sensor measures incoming air temp and makes adjustments accordingly, I have not had a problem on the M44.

I have not noticed a difference on cold damp mornings to the extent I did with my RS Turbo, but I think that is because a turbo is real forced induction.

I think the best thing is to break down what works for 4 pots and 6 pots. But you still have to get a good feed of cold air to either filter type.
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Jonttt
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Post by Jonttt »

I think without doubt its a fact that anything that can be done to ensure that the air entering the induction is as cold as possible can only increase the power of the ignition.

It therefore follows that fitting a heat shield can only increase power.

Even on the Z3m's it would harldy be noticeable. Fitting an induction system to a Z3 in isolation will probably not actually increase power, in fact without a heat shiled it may slightly decrease power but this may be offset if you have a better airfeed.

So I think the OP's comment that he's not looking at induction to increase power is realistic, I think the comment that a heat shield should be fitted is correct, I think your comment that improved intake airflow should be fitted is also correct. But I think to put things in perspective none of them will make a drastic difference to an otherwise standard setup.
Happiness is not around the corner........happiness is the corner
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Mac The Tank
Joined: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 21:56
Posts: 127

  Z3 roadster 2.2i
Location: Brighton

Post by Mac The Tank »

wow. what did I start here?!

ok, I'm not after power increase just want it to sound a bit more "fruity"!

as an engineer of sorts it makes sense that cold air is more dense and to maintain the air fuel ratio; there most be more fuel added by the ecu. my question was only related to the noise produced by a closed filter, ie simota, vs that of an open filter (either foam or cotton gauze).

I agree if I wanted power, I would have looked at a different model, maybe even a different car ( god forbid...) but as it stands, with no definitive answer, I'll be looking to get an ITG foam kit of some sort.

thanks everyone for your input, and i'll be sure to share my experiences!

Mac
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Update 04/14 - 18,702 miles
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Gazza
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Location: Romford Essex

Post by Gazza »

The Simota style will give more 'Roar', I had a Gruppe M replica on my old 2.8, sounded fantastic :P
Gazza

"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you take the wall with you"

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Post by Guest »

Jonttt wrote: It therefore follows that fitting a heat shield can only increase power.
I dont think so, in reality you are just putting a barrier up that will delay the heat reaching the filter, over a period of time the running temperature will equalise in the engine bay (probably 30 minutes).

The only true way is to ensure the whole filter is shrouded and a direct cold air feed is attached, which i think is the purpose of the Simota when fitted correctly with a direct cold air supply. In other words as per OEM air box but with a shorter and wider induction route, which then in other words is the fogged air box mod.

Fully agree on the power increase scenario, you need to have a free flow exhaust and possibly even a remap to get the most out of the modification. However what you will notice is responsiveness is improved, especially on the M44 engine from the mid to top rev range. The engine is normally starved of air due to the protracted induction route and constrained air inlet, removing this allows the engine to breathe easily through the entire rev range up and past redline, which i think most standard M44 owners will agree is difficult. This for me was the best gain so far, I have the free flow exhaust though, just a remap to go.

The difference I have found over the fogged air box mod and i57 K&N is that you get the induction roar with the K&N.

If anyone wants a fogged air box and K&N panel filter for an M44 let me know.
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Post by Guest »

Evmundo wrote:
Jonttt wrote: It therefore follows that fitting a heat shield can only increase power.
I dont think so, in reality you are just putting a barrier up that will delay the heat reaching the filter, over a period of time the running temperature will equalise in the engine bay (probably 30 minutes).

The only true way is to ensure the whole filter is shrouded and a direct cold air feed is attached, which i think is the purpose of the Simota when fitted correctly with a direct cold air supply. In other words as per OEM air box but with a shorter and wider induction route, which then in other words is the fogged air box mod.

Fully agree on the power increase scenario, you need to have a free flow exhaust and possibly even a remap to get the most out of the modification. However what you will notice is responsiveness is improved, especially on the M44 engine from the mid to top rev range. The engine is normally starved of air due to the protracted induction route and constrained air inlet, removing this allows the engine to breathe easily through the entire rev range up and past redline, which i think most standard M44 owners will agree is difficult. This for me was the best gain so far, I have the free flow exhaust though, just a remap to go.

The difference I have found over the fogged air box mod and i57 K&N is that you get the induction roar with the K&N.

If anyone wants a fogged air box and K&N panel filter for an M44 let me know.
oh dear ... :shake: :head:
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Post by Guest »

hannyg2011 wrote:

oh dear ... :shake: :head:
Explain yourself Hanny (rhymes with something that :puzzle: )

Again, because you have not tried something you think it does not work, I am quite willing for you to pop round, where I will demonstrate by putting my zed to stock, letting you drive it and then putting the induction kit and cold air pipe back on and again letting you drive it.

You really do need to put this luddite mentality away, or keep it to yourself

Please take me up on my offer though, I will enjoy the look on your face :D

To think i thanked you for advice on a handbrake handle............
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hornel Z3M
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m

Post by hornel Z3M »

Do you have a Z3 Hannyg?
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Jonttt
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  M roadster S54
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Post by Jonttt »

Evmundo wrote:
which i think is the purpose of the Simota when fitted correctly
To be honest I had assumed that it was a given the simota is fitted correctly. Mine could not have been a better fit. It's therefore a given a correctly fitted Simons or other correctly fitted heat shield must be better than an open type filter.
Happiness is not around the corner........happiness is the corner
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Post by Guest »

Jonnttt, Thats what i was trying to say in my last post, the Carbon Fibre shroud on the Simota is the Heat Shield, the shape of the front of the Simota is designed to fit the air aperture on the car to ensure maximum cold air, This is difficult on the Z3 as it sucks on the head light, extra cold air ducting up to the Simota would pay dividends.

On mine a heat shield that does not shroud the filter but is a single wall between the engine and filter would be no use (you cannot seal the filter from the engine bay), as the air temp would equalise out over time, but with a cold air supply to the filter, you negate most of the heating effect, and as i said way up in the bubbles of quotes above, I have had no pre ignition issues.

If there was a problem, then the fogged air box would be the answer, which in itself is a rough type Simota.

I think the only true way out of a heating issue to fit a snorkel like on the MR2 mod, or sit the air filter outside the car like on a Westfield.
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Post by Guest »

Evmundo wrote:Jonnttt, Thats what i was trying to say in my last post, the Carbon Fibre shroud on the Simota is the Heat Shield, the shape of the front of the Simota is designed to fit the air aperture on the car to ensure maximum cold air, This is difficult on the Z3 as it sucks on the head light, extra cold air ducting up to the Simota would pay dividends.

On mine a heat shield that does not shroud the filter but is a single wall between the engine and filter would be no use (you cannot seal the filter from the engine bay), as the air temp would equalise out over time, but with a cold air supply to the filter, you negate most of the heating effect, and as i said way up in the bubbles of quotes above, I have had no pre ignition issues.

If there was a problem, then the fogged air box would be the answer, which in itself is a rough type Simota.

I think the only true way out of a heating issue to fit a snorkel like on the MR2 mod, or sit the air filter outside the car like on a Westfield.
to be honest - I think your credibility was shot when you said your set up was "forced induction" :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:

you should maybe stick up some before and after dyno plots for us though, given that bum dyno's count for squat
Last edited by Guest on Thu 27 Oct, 2011 20:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: m

Post by Guest »

hornel Z3M wrote:Do you have a Z3 Hannyg?
is that relevant to this thread? :?:
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Post by Guest »

hannyg2011 wrote:
Evmundo wrote:Jonnttt, Thats what i was trying to say in my last post, the Carbon Fibre shroud on the Simota is the Heat Shield, the shape of the front of the Simota is designed to fit the air aperture on the car to ensure maximum cold air, This is difficult on the Z3 as it sucks on the head light, extra cold air ducting up to the Simota would pay dividends.

On mine a heat shield that does not shroud the filter but is a single wall between the engine and filter would be no use (you cannot seal the filter from the engine bay), as the air temp would equalise out over time, but with a cold air supply to the filter, you negate most of the heating effect, and as i said way up in the bubbles of quotes above, I have had no pre ignition issues.

If there was a problem, then the fogged air box would be the answer, which in itself is a rough type Simota.

I think the only true way out of a heating issue to fit a snorkel like on the MR2 mod, or sit the air filter outside the car like on a Westfield.
to be honest - I think your credibility was shot when you said your set up was "forced induction" :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:

you should maybe stick up some before and after dyno plots for us though, given that bum dyne's count for squat
To be honest my large browed friend, i find it hard to understand any comment you make, perhaps you should add some extra speaker pods to improve your sound stage.

What the F@*K has a dyno got to do with this conversation, we are talking about induction, if you have followed the thread you would have noted that everyone except the extinct here have agreed that power is not gained by changing the induction alone.

(For information, if you adapt the air flow to be pushed in rather than pulled in (ref cold air supply, air scoop, front of car, car forward momentum = air pressure at front) then in my humble opinion this is forced induction, maybe not to the extent of a turbo or a blower, but it is forced induction - credibility restored!)

The discussion has then moved on to heat build up, where the merits of the Simota system have been confirmed as the carbon shroud provides the heat shield and the design allows it to be placed as close to cold air as possible. It has then been discussed, that a single wall heat shield would make no difference as it cannot prevent heat build up over time as it is not sealed.

It was then discussed that the two alternatives to reduce heat are either the fogged air box or a cold air supply. (Simota do not make an M44 version)

Have you managed to keep up?, There is a lot of information on this forum reference the benefits of induction, i suggest you go read them and get an Induction (see what i did there? probably not)

To finish the main problem on open filters and the reason why heat becomes a problem is because people do not spend the extra and fit a cold air supply to the filter. similar to fitting a turbo and not reducing compression, you are going to get problems.

I agree with the earlier post, do you actually own a Z3 or any car for that matter.

You could always check the DVLA again for the answer. :lol:
Guest

  

Post by Guest »

Evmundo wrote:
hannyg2011 wrote:
Evmundo wrote:Jonnttt, Thats what i was trying to say in my last post, the Carbon Fibre shroud on the Simota is the Heat Shield, the shape of the front of the Simota is designed to fit the air aperture on the car to ensure maximum cold air, This is difficult on the Z3 as it sucks on the head light, extra cold air ducting up to the Simota would pay dividends.

On mine a heat shield that does not shroud the filter but is a single wall between the engine and filter would be no use (you cannot seal the filter from the engine bay), as the air temp would equalise out over time, but with a cold air supply to the filter, you negate most of the heating effect, and as i said way up in the bubbles of quotes above, I have had no pre ignition issues.

If there was a problem, then the fogged air box would be the answer, which in itself is a rough type Simota.

I think the only true way out of a heating issue to fit a snorkel like on the MR2 mod, or sit the air filter outside the car like on a Westfield.
to be honest - I think your credibility was shot when you said your set up was "forced induction" :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:

you should maybe stick up some before and after dyno plots for us though, given that bum dyne's count for squat
To be honest my large browed friend, i find it hard to understand any comment you make, perhaps you should add some extra speaker pods to improve your sound stage.

What the F@*K has a dyno got to do with this conversation, we are talking about induction, if you have followed the thread you would have noted that everyone except the extinct here have agreed that power is not gained by changing the induction alone.

(For information, if you adapt the air flow to be pushed in rather than pulled in (ref cold air supply, air scoop, front of car, car forward momentum = air pressure at front) then in my humble opinion this is forced induction, maybe not to the extent of a turbo or a blower, but it is forced induction - credibility restored!)

The discussion has then moved on to heat build up, where the merits of the Simota system have been confirmed as the carbon shroud provides the heat shield and the design allows it to be placed as close to cold air as possible. It has then been discussed, that a single wall heat shield would make no difference as it cannot prevent heat build up over time as it is not sealed.

It was then discussed that the two alternatives to reduce heat are either the fogged air box or a cold air supply. (Simota do not make an M44 version)

Have you managed to keep up?, There is a lot of information on this forum reference the benefits of induction, i suggest you go read them and get an Induction (see what i did there? probably not)

To finish the main problem on open filters and the reason why heat becomes a problem is because people do not spend the extra and fit a cold air supply to the filter. similar to fitting a turbo and not reducing compression, you are going to get problems.

I agree with the earlier post, do you actually own a Z3 or any car for that matter.

You could always check the DVLA again for the answer. :lol:
Can you try to keep your potty mouth under control. My reply was merely a polite decline of the offer you made of driving your pony 1.9. I would prefer to see proof in the form of a calibrated dyno as I like to work with hard facts.

Maybe you should add an electric supercharger to your set up and an electronic dump valve just to complete the set up
Mac The Tank
Joined: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 21:56
Posts: 127

  Z3 roadster 2.2i
Location: Brighton

Post by Mac The Tank »

Ahh yes, the Fogged air box mod. Thats another spanner in the works then... That and the B&Q cold air inlet, courtesy of Mr Mike Fishwick (I thank you).

So after much thought and reading over older threads on here, I'm guessing that:

Fogged air box
Image
Thanks go to Shawn Fogg for above picture

Increases air flow, maintains stock heat shielding but no increase in induction "roar".

Cone Filter with Heat Shield
Image
Image
Thanks go to Mad Max and Mike Fishwick for above pictures

A cone filter will give "some" noise but needs a heat shield and a cold air feed to be effective.

Enclosed Filter
Image
Image
Thanks go to uk86ze & Perrin Z3M for above pictures

A Simota or BMC style filter gives the induction roar, is a complete heat shield by design and therefore needs a good cold air feed as above.


Its now becoming apparent that the actual filter element is less of a factor and its more the air feed and the heat shielding design.
I think i'll be saving up for a Simota...


Further Reading:
http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8918
http://mz3.net/1-9-fogged-airbox-modification.html
http://ackthud.com/shawnfogg/1_9stepbystep.htm
Mac
Image
Topaz Blue 2.2i Y2001 - only 16045 miles on the clock! (2011)
Update 04/14 - 18,702 miles
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Post by Guest »

hannyg2011 wrote:
Evmundo wrote:
hannyg2011 wrote: to be honest - I think your credibility was shot when you said your set up was "forced induction" :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:

you should maybe stick up some before and after dyno plots for us though, given that bum dyne's count for squat
To be honest my large browed friend, i find it hard to understand any comment you make, perhaps you should add some extra speaker pods to improve your sound stage.

What the F@*K has a dyno got to do with this conversation, we are talking about induction, if you have followed the thread you would have noted that everyone except the extinct here have agreed that power is not gained by changing the induction alone.

(For information, if you adapt the air flow to be pushed in rather than pulled in (ref cold air supply, air scoop, front of car, car forward momentum = air pressure at front) then in my humble opinion this is forced induction, maybe not to the extent of a turbo or a blower, but it is forced induction - credibility restored!)

The discussion has then moved on to heat build up, where the merits of the Simota system have been confirmed as the carbon shroud provides the heat shield and the design allows it to be placed as close to cold air as possible. It has then been discussed, that a single wall heat shield would make no difference as it cannot prevent heat build up over time as it is not sealed.

It was then discussed that the two alternatives to reduce heat are either the fogged air box or a cold air supply. (Simota do not make an M44 version)

Have you managed to keep up?, There is a lot of information on this forum reference the benefits of induction, i suggest you go read them and get an Induction (see what i did there? probably not)

To finish the main problem on open filters and the reason why heat becomes a problem is because people do not spend the extra and fit a cold air supply to the filter. similar to fitting a turbo and not reducing compression, you are going to get problems.

I agree with the earlier post, do you actually own a Z3 or any car for that matter.

You could always check the DVLA again for the answer. :lol:
Can you try to keep your potty mouth under control. My reply was merely a polite decline of the offer you made of driving your pony 1.9. I would prefer to see proof in the form of a calibrated dyno as I like to work with hard facts.

Maybe you should add an electric supercharger to your set up and an electronic dump valve just to complete the set up
Wow you have no idea do you...............did they do humour at your elementary school you did not graduate from?

The 1.9 16V is one of the most tuneable engines of the Z3 range there are plenty of threads across the various BMW forums as it was used on the 318 as well, it has just over a second difference 0 - 60 difference with the 2.8 and that equates to just a poor gear change or poor servicing etc.

I do not want to speak to you anymore, you did not even pick up way up in this thread that i was taking the mick, which in its self paints a picture (checking the DVLA for the colour of my car - :shake: , i will let you in to a secret:

"They have taken Gullible out of the dictionary"

However the information traded between myself and Jonttt is correct, perhaps you should take note, if you ever purchase a Z3

P.S, Can you lend me $30,000 dollars to process a legal document to net $1,000,000 held in dispute I will give you 10% on completion?
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Post by Guest »

Mac, thanks for the vindication, I rest my case.........
Guest

  

Post by Guest »

Evmundo wrote: The 1.9 16V is one of the most tuneable engines of the Z3 range there are plenty of threads across the various BMW forums as it was used on the 318 as well, it has just over a second difference 0 - 60 difference with the 2.8 and that equates to just a poor gear change or poor servicing
Deluded much??? :roll: :lol:

Ps difference is nearer 2.5 seconds stock
Guest

  

Post by Guest »

hannyg2011 wrote:
Evmundo wrote: The 1.9 16V is one of the most tuneable engines of the Z3 range there are plenty of threads across the various BMW forums as it was used on the 318 as well, it has just over a second difference 0 - 60 difference with the 2.8 and that equates to just a poor gear change or poor servicing
Deluded much??? :roll: :lol:

Ps difference is nearer 2.5 seconds stock
Your so funny.....................do you know Forest Gump PMSL
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Jonttt
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Posts: 6554

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Location: Liverpool

Post by Jonttt »

Mac The Tank wrote:Ahh yes, the Fogged air box mod. Thats another spanner in the works then... That and the B&Q cold air inlet, courtesy of Mr Mike Fishwick (I thank you).

So after much thought and reading over older threads on here, I'm guessing that:

Fogged air box
Image
Thanks go to Shawn Fogg for above picture

Increases air flow, maintains stock heat shielding but no increase in induction "roar".

Cone Filter with Heat Shield
Image
Image
Thanks go to Mad Max and Mike Fishwick for above pictures

A cone filter will give "some" noise but needs a heat shield and a cold air feed to be effective.

Enclosed Filter
Image
Image
Thanks go to uk86ze & Perrin Z3M for above pictures

A Simota or BMC style filter gives the induction roar, is a complete heat shield by design and therefore needs a good cold air feed as above.


Its now becoming apparent that the actual filter element is less of a factor and its more the air feed and the heat shielding design.
I think i'll be saving up for a Simota...


Further Reading:
http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8918
http://mz3.net/1-9-fogged-airbox-modification.html
http://ackthud.com/shawnfogg/1_9stepbystep.htm
Perfect ;-) the worst case scenario is the open filter with no heat shield or additional air intake that so many people fit from eBay
Happiness is not around the corner........happiness is the corner
Image Video or Journal Garage: 2015 FFRR Black Edition, Porsche Boxster GTS, 1997 Porsche Carrara C4S, Ex 2001 BMW S54 Z3m Roadster
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