Seat Tilt kit

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Southernboy
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Seat Tilt kit

Post by Southernboy »

Has anyone installed the seat tilt mod on thier Z3 ?? If so, can you tell us about it... :D
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Gazza
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Gazza »

I remember someone posting that they just placed a nut between the runner and the floor on the front fixing.
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Southernboy
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Southernboy »

From what I can gather, the lift is aprox 1" at the front, and is made by a Male/Female type fitting. ie. a female "nut" which screws onto the floor stud,but which has a further bolt attached on top so that the OEM nut will then lock the runner onto tha new 1" higher stud. Should imagine it's a fairly easy item to machine...
It's just that the pre-facelift seats are comfortable, but the feeling is that under braking one tends to slide forward. The M seats have the added side and center thigh support, which it appears would make ones "seat" more cocooned so to speak, and thus less tendency to slip forward, and end up slouching in the seat.
I might just have a set turned for the driver's seat and test it for driving comfort and support.
I'd be a tad wary of placing a nut under the slide, as that would leave a minimum of thread to lock the nut to once the slide is in position.
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by PCSAM »

Southernboy wrote:From what I can gather, the lift is aprox 1" at the front, and is made by a Male/Female type fitting. ie. a female "nut" which screws onto the floor stud,but which has a further bolt attached on top so that the OEM nut will then lock the runner onto tha new 1" higher stud. Should imagine it's a fairly easy item to machine...
It's just that the pre-facelift seats are comfortable, but the feeling is that under braking one tends to slide forward. The M seats have the added side and center thigh support, which it appears would make ones "seat" more cocooned so to speak, and thus less tendency to slip forward, and end up slouching in the seat.
I might just have a set turned for the driver's seat and test it for driving comfort and support.
I'd be a tad wary of placing a nut under the slide, as that would leave a minimum of thread to lock the nut to once the slide is in position.
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Southernboy
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Southernboy »

Just busy on my autocad doing the drawings for the CNC guys down the road..They can put the disc into their computer, and let the machine produce the item as per drawing...I'll let you know asap I have a set, and tested them. All things being OK, I'll knock out some for you.
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Captain
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Captain »

I'd be interested if they work :grin: sounds like great idea.

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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by g8jka »

Yes I have done it makes a massive difference can't remember how though I am sure there is a guide somewhere which tells you what you need. If you look on the wickes website you use something called a studding connector which screws into the bolt already in the floor and then you use another bolt through the top of the seat to screw into the studding connector. I can't remember which sizes I used though :-(
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Southernboy
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Southernboy »

That's about what I thought...My concern is stability of the bottom of the slide where it would normally lay on the floor. I'm thinking a 38mm nut, with the M8 thread in the center so that the slide will still have a sound base to support it. The 38mm nut will be 25mm thick, and a tapered washer of 44mm D - to allow for the angle created fron to back. I'll just need to determine the angle by measuring the distance between the bolts - front to back, and have an appropriate compensating washer machined which will simply be placed on top of the "Lifter Nut" and under the slide. Then 2 x M8 bolts to hold the slide down will bolt into the "Lifter Nut"
A 38mm nut is still able to be tightened down with a socket or a decent shifting spanner, and it's thickness of 25mm will allow sufficient depth for the final M8 locking bolts to a depth of around 15mm +mm.
So, off to the suppliers to see what I can glean from them as standard issue 38mm nuts with 8mm threaded centers (somehow I don't think I'll get that "off the shelf"), and then do some machining for the tapered washers. Might have to make those 38mm nuts from scratch in steel. A half hour on the CNC machine will have them done... :wink:
I'm not too keen on using a 13 size coupling nut which is the M8 spanner size...it just seems it will be too unstable for side to side and forward /back dynamics under extreme braking. I would rather be safe and ensure the soundest modification. Anyhow, I'll add to this post tomorrow evening with any outcomes... :)
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by g8jka »

See this thread.

It tells you exactly what you need and also has some pictures of it further down the thread. The mod only cost me a couple of quid as well :D
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Southernboy
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Southernboy »

Thats great!!! Just had a look at the write up and pics from 1988...
Again, I am a little wary of the seat resting on such a small base. It seems that the stud in the car floor has basically been extended 25mm by the coupler..Being an M8 stud, the nut is a size 13mm spanner...that means the slide is resting on a 17mm D base of the 25mm long coupler and held by 8mm of mild steel bolt in two pieces...I'm not sure that would hold the seat under impact or a hard swerve...Perhaps I'm being too cautious ?? Might be an idea to have two chunky steel 45mm OD washers with 8mm holes welded either end of the coupler, and reduce the length of the coupler..by the thickness of the two washers (8mm) That way it'll have more stability...
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Boysie
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Boysie »

Hi
I bought a set of these never got around to fitting them
Somebody on here raised an issue regarding the back bolts
now securing an angled runner
I am not sure of the full details
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by g8jka »

Yes it will probably have better stability but no one has made a kit like this yet as far as I know :?:

Mine have been on for around 18 months and I haven't had any problems, neither have I heard of anyone else having problems that have done this mod so it's worth a try even if you just do it as a temporary measure and then produce a better quality kit :)
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Southernboy
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Southernboy »

Boysie has hit the nail on the head...If you create an angle, you need to have a supporting tapered washer to compensate. If you don't then tightening down the nuts at fron or rear might cause the slide to bend and not operate properly.
I'll do the math and have parts made to spec...And once that's done then the knowledge and spec info can be passed around freely to anyone else wanting to do the mod. I don't think it's terribly complicated, but having "one offs" made is always costly. I'll shop around and try to find the most cost effective supplies etc.
More info tomorrow,,,, :wink:
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by DC »

g8jka wrote: Mine have been on for around 18 months and I haven't had any problems, neither have I heard of anyone else having problems that have done this mod so it's worth a try even if you just do it as a temporary measure and then produce a better quality kit :)
Good advice, did mine nearly 3 years back and even at 15 stone plus, no problems.

http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopi ... =5&t=23165

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Southernboy
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Southernboy »

Does anyone know the measurement - front to back - and center to center - of the fixing points of the seat bolts?? I could remove a seat and measure it myself, but if anyone has the info, it would save me the hassle... :roll:

No worries...just found it...335mm :wink:
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Southernboy »

Just been to the enginneering shop to drop off the drawings for pricing.... For those that may be interested, the angle created by lifting the front mounts by 25mm is 3.93 degrees from horizontal...Obviously to make a tapered washer with that exact angle is possible - if one was considering a part for the space shuttle - a useful angle of 4 degrees is accurate enough, and easily engineered.
I will hopefully have costings later today, and will post that here later.

Just as a brief description of the parts:-
a). The "coupler" comprises a 20mm thick x 40mm diameter, with an M8 threaded center hole. The coupler seen from it's side view will have a centrally machined section which will allow a 27mm spanner to be used to tighten it down on the floor stud. ie. the coupler is a solid cylinder, with a 9mm groove machined centrally to it's height on two opposite sides creating parallel faces to accommodate the spanner. This leaves a 5,5mm thich "circular flange" which when fitted to the floor stud provides a decent base on the car floor, and an equal 5,5mm flange at the opposite face to support the seat slide.

Further....

b). A 40mm diameter washer with a taper across it at 4 degrees. The washer will sit atop the coupler, and under the seat slide to compensate the angle. The washer will be 2mm thick on it's "thin edge and increase to 5mm at it's "thick" edge, thus creating the total lift of 25mm.

When fitting it will be necessary to position the washer appropriately before inserting the M8 bolts to lock the slides down. The M8 bolts will obviously screw into the coupler. All parts are Mild tensile steel.

If the pricing is viable, (4 units per car and there is sufficient interest), I will ask them to produce them, and post pics of the "kit".

More later today... :D
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Southernboy »

PS....These parts will all be professionally machined / finished....anyone interested in a set, please let me know asap so I can negotiate pricing / quantity.
A "set" will comprise:-

4 x couplers.
8 x tapered washers. (A washer under each of the front fixing points (as described in the previous post) and a washer between the floor and the slide frame under each of the rear fixing points)
4 x M8 bolts (of correct length for the fronts).

The "set" will allow both seats to be modified and stably secured.
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Captain »

I'm definitely in for a set, thanks :grin:

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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by BladeRunner919 »

I've thought about doing this but always wondered about the taper. Would certainly be interested at the right price.
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by PCSAM »

a fantastic idea . im in for a set . this will be a a popular mod I bet :D
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by DC »

This sounds like a great idea, just a thought though, could it be done with a choice of heights as I found that although 25mm felt great at first, it proved to be too much for me on a longer journey as the front edge of the seat began to irritate. Finally reduced to 20mm which is just right for me.
The perfect height will be very much a personal preference of course and the type of seat may affect it as well.
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Southernboy »

As far as height goes, I would say that even with my proposed 20mm plus washer, the actual height gain would be 22,5mm tops. The washer is 5mm thick at it's extreme, which is 20mm from the center, so the actual center would be around 2,5mm thick. If you drop your seat height adjustment by 3-5mm it will compensate for the height gain in the front, and alleviate the pressure under the back of your knees / thighs.
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Southernboy »

Can't get any pricing until tomorrow.... :cry:
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Southernboy »

For those interested...It seems as though the general engineering sector here is taking the day off to do the Staff Xmas functions....I will however have a completed set made up and in my hands next week. As soon as I receive it, I will post some pics / prices etc.
I am looking into the option of having these wahers made from Nylon as it seems the manufacturing process in steel is costly in machine time. I have managed to source the exact 40mm x 40mm solid nylon bar, now I'm looking for a suitable person to cut it to the required angle / thickness. I don't imagine it will be too difficult, in fact a nearby mate has a pretty well jacked up workshop, and I reckon he'll be the answer to that aspect.
More next week... :wink:
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Southernboy »

Had a chat to my mate, and he's willing to do the cutting of the washers... :D :D
I'll collect a couple of meters of the "Nylacast P66" next week, and let him get into it...
The CNC machining of the Coupler will be done next week, and I will do a fitting in my car and post here with pics etc... :D :D
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Southernboy »

Update...
One of the forum members has raised some concerns as to the safety of this modification. I think he has some valid and serious concerns, and with that consideration in mind, I am awaiting his calculations / argument so I can submit those concerns to the Dept of Mech Eng at Wits University for their assessment. Until then, and dependent on the outcome of the response from Wits, it will be in everyone's interest to suspend any hasty and potentially dangerous modifications.
Once the report is available, I will copy it to the post for anyone interested to read. Any revisions required for the mod will be considered and applied / recommended.
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Southernboy »

A brief description of the safety issue concerns:-
With the OEM seat fastening set-up, the front fixing point allows the seat slide/frame to rest on the floor of the car with the M8 stud protruding through the frame by 8,5mm. A mild steel nut with flange locks this down. The nut is rated at 25nm max Tightening torque, and BMW specify a 22nm torque when fitting the nut. Bear in mind that the frame is resting on the floor at the base of the stud, so any shear force is located at the base of the stud in the event of a collission. This makes the fixing point as trong as it can be given the materials, and that the stud is fixed into 2mm sheet metal, being the floor of the car.

The threaded depth of the OEM 13mm (M8) nut is 8,0mm, which is somewhat less than the rule of thumb that the thread should be 1,5 times the diameter of the bolt / stud. ie. the nut should be 16mm deep vs 8,0mm as it is. With this in mind, one must say that the OEM nut is inadequate to the rule of thumb, but monetheless it is the specified item.

If one fits the proposed lifting coupler, which is 40mm diameter x 20mm thick, with an M8 threaded hole through it's center, the lower 8,5mm of the thread will be occupied by the stud, the upper 11mm of the coupler will be occupied by the bolt which will pass from the top, through the seat frame, the washer, and into the coupler. ie. the total threaded section of bolt held inside the coupler will be 11mm.
However, the seat frame will be 23mm above the floor. (20mm of coupler + 3mm of washer)
The bolt will be a high tensile steel bolt with a rated 45nm max torque. This means it can be tightened to 42nm vs 22nm for the OEM nut.

The coupler is made from N8 steel (same steel as is used for axles) which is sufficiently strong to deal with the added torque of the bolt. (No added torque is applied to the stud when torquing the bolt.)
The diameter of the coupler is 40mm as mentioned above. This will provide as much of a "base" as is currently available to the seat frame, as the front fixing point is a raised area created by the metal pressing mold when the floor was manufactured. ie. The seat frame rests on 4 "high" points at it's four fixing points and not flush to the floor along the length of the seat slide / frame. This means that the ammount of surface contact with the car floor will not be any less than OEM.

The crux of the matter is that the front of the seat frame is now 23mm above the floor. The "weakest" point will be the OEM stud.

Bearing in mind that the rear (M10) bolts are torqued to 44nm,(BMW OEM Spec) and, as such provide the main fixing points of the seat in terms of a frontal or side impact, the weakening of the front fixing points as a consequence of raising it 23mm above the floor, but increasing the fastening torque of the frame to the coupler by double the 22nm nut, will compensate considerably, but not 100%.
ie. The strength of the front fixing points will be measurably less than OEM, but not significantly that it will present a hazard of any kind except perhaps if you drove into a solid concrete block at 100mph, in which event the OEM set-up isn't going to help you either. In that event, the airbag and safety belt would absorb the bulk of the mass inertia.
Further, for the front fixing point to fail completely, it would require all 4 fixing points to fail. ie. any one of the front points will not dislodge if the rear points don't. So it would require an extreme force to rip out the 4 bolts.
Is the seat as safe with the mod as it is without it? Well, as stated, for a complete failure, all 4 points will need to fail...and the difference between modded and un-modded is measurable even if the difference is small.
Consequently, if one were to do the mod, one might first consider insurance matters, (although if you were involved in an impact which ripped 4 bolts out I can't see it would matter much, as you wouldn't need insurance again.)
Secondly, you would need to accept that having made the modification, the parts would need to be tightened to the applicable torques to provide the minimal movement at the fixing points, and the maximum stability and safety.
Thirdly, accepting the above, the onus and responsibility would rest with you with respect to maintaining the integrity of the seat fixings and ensure that all 4 points are in good condition.

Whereas here in SA, I enjoy a dry climate where rust is a problem other people have, I am fairly confident in doing such a mod. Others living in countries with climates where rust may be an issue might consider that their existing OEM fixing points may already be compromised, and adding the mod will only compromise matters further, and you may be endangering yourself and passenger (s).
Is it safe? In my opinion, yes. Is it as safe as OEM ? Yes, provided that the integrity of the studs, floor, fixed nuts, seat frame, torques and for that matter, the car floor are all in good condition.
The fixed nuts of the rear mounting points may be perfect, but the surrounding floor to which they are welded may be rotten with rust...is it safe with or without the mod...neither.

So what it ammounts to is a personal choice based on your knowledge and assessment of the status of your car and accepting that the mod is not as stable as the OEM set-up even if the difference is small.

Should you decide to go ahead with such a mod, I would recommend that the fixing bolts front and rear be given a dose of "BLUE" Loctite, and be torqued correctly as well as the coupler to the stud.
This will at least ensure the bolts do not unfasten over time, while still allowing them to be unfastened if you need to remove the seats for maintenance.
Also, once the coupler is torqued down, a film of Loctite be applied between the face of the washer and the coupler to minimise any possibility of movement across that plane.

I will say that the concern expressed by one of the members is with that difference, however small, between the OEM and modded scenarios, and his concern is based on knowledge of fixings, materials etc. and not to be taken lightly.
I have taken his cautions into consideration, and decided to upgrade the material of the coupler to N8 grade steel with a fine metric thread for the high tensile steel bolt. (By using a fine thread it will increase the surface area of contact between the bolt and the coupler, and provide a more solid "joint") The OEM stud is standard M8 threaded, and the coupler will have a matching thread on it's opposite side to accommodate that thread. The washer will also be N8 grade steel. The washers and coupler are CNC machined so the mating surfaces of the coupler and the washer will be as near as dammit to a perfect match.


Finally, anyone that want's me to supply them with these components, accepts the above information with it's cautions and does so responsibly.

I have re-specified the materials to the manufacturer, and I anticipate his revised costings tomorrow. I don't imagine it will be a cheap mod, (the 4 high tensile steel bolts with metric fine threads are £. 2.50 for 4 bolts alone) but with the view of providing as safe a mod as can be without making the cost prohibitive, it is worth the few bob more.
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by BladeRunner919 »

I didn't read all that, but I assume it's 'do the mod at your own risk', which is fine. Just need a price, now. :D
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by PCSAM »

I have read it and now my head hurts .... :shock:
in reality who torques the seat bolts back on after removing then :?:
I think the mod your making is as good as OEM
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Southernboy »

I don't think many people torque them, but as long as they are aware of the facts, they can do as they wish. I have a torque wrench, and it's as small as a standard ratchet/wrench, so torquing is as easy as not. I think half the guys don't have one, or have one of those 450mm long wrenches, which are too awkward for most tasks.
Anyhow, the pricing should be available tomorrow, in which event I will be in touch.
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Captain »

Let's do it, sounds good to me :grin:

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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by si-forks »

I would be up for a set

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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by gookah »

Southernboy wrote:With this in mind, one must say that the OEM nut is inadequate to the rule of thumb, but monetheless it is the specified item.

That tells me all I need to know, If this design was so critical then BMW would have specc'ed the correct nut in the first place. If we are saying that things are being made unsafe, then there can't be a caveat for BMW just by saying well that nut is now ok because "it's the specified item".
They would also have made springs that don't break cos of punctures in that stupid plastic coating, and wheels that don't crack when you drive over anything other than the surface of a billiard table, and steering that doesn't stick when it gets warm!
I am sure these fixings will have a factor of safety built in so altering them slightly probably wont make a jot of difference.


If the impact is so great as to rip out the fixings, then I would be more worried about the engine/bulkhead and other vehicle coming into the cabin, rather than the cushioned seat following me out of it.
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Southernboy »

Let me correct the assertion I made regarding the front seat nut. I have been informed that the nut is adequate, provided the stud extends 1,5 - 2.0mm above the nut and that when it is correctly torqued to 22nm as specified by BMW.
The reality is still that the stud will have to be secured by good metal around it. If this area is rusted, you may as well use chewing gum for what the stud is worth as a mounting point.
I wonder how many people have removed their seats, and on re-fitting, have not torqued the nuts to 22nm. If they did correctly torque them, would the stud survive it's fixing to the car, and if not, it would certainly expose some degradation of the frame / chassis there.
Might be a useful excercise for anyone that hasn't torqued the nuts to do so, at least they can be sure that they are secure - as can be.
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BladeRunner919
Joined: Fri 17 Feb, 2012 20:18
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  Z3 roadster 1.9

Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by BladeRunner919 »

22nm isn't that much. I expect most of us have hit that just by doing them up without a torque wrench.
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BladeRunner919
Joined: Fri 17 Feb, 2012 20:18
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  Z3 roadster 1.9

Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by BladeRunner919 »

Oh, absolutely. I wouldn't be surprised if most of us overtightened rather than under.
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Southernboy
Joined: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 12:39
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  Z3 roadster 3.0i
Location: Johannesburg

Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Southernboy »

I'm pleased to say that the first samples will be out within the next couple of days...Quite a few changes were made to the original concept design - thanks to qualified professional input from Zedonist, the product will be as near as dammit to being OEM safe. That means anyone fitting these kits can be confident that his or anyone else's safety will not be compromised.
Fitting instructions will accompany each kit as well as all the required specified bolts etc.etc.

They will be Zinc coated - Black. Being black, they will at least fit in with the frame finish of the seat frame, and appear as if they were made as part of the set-up. Also, they won't attract the attention of MOT inspectors as much as if they were yellow zinc coated etc. and they won't be susceptible to rust.
As soon as the samples are out, I will post pics of them, and pics of them fitted in my car.

PCSAM has agreed to be the distributor in the Northern hemisphere, and I will ship to him by sea - hugely cheaper than airfreight given they will be quite weighty. I expect the first batch of 20 kits to be with him by end Jan / begin Feb next.
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Southernboy
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  Z3 roadster 3.0i
Location: Johannesburg

Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Southernboy »

Happy to say the "kit" is a success....I'm waiting on the Admin Men to OK selling it on the forum....All being well, PCSAM will lodge a new post with pics, prices etc etc... :D
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PCSAM
Joined: Sat 13 Aug, 2011 01:19
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Location: Taynuilt

Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by PCSAM »

Southernboy wrote:Happy to say the "kit" is a success....I'm waiting on the Admin Men to OK selling it on the forum....All being well, PCSAM will lodge a new post with pics, prices etc etc... :D
sneak peek :D Image
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BladeRunner919
Joined: Fri 17 Feb, 2012 20:18
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  Z3 roadster 1.9

Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by BladeRunner919 »

Ooooh! Looking good!
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Southernboy
Joined: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 12:39
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  Z3 roadster 3.0i
Location: Johannesburg

Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by Southernboy »

Cheers Blade...It feels as solidly good as it looks too...worth the development effort and cost of a truly well made mod. A huge thanks to Zedonist, without whom the end product might not have been all it could be. :bow
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Re: Seat Tilt kit

Post by PCSAM »

kit is now ready for orders , delivery late Jan 2013 ..
http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopi ... 88#p338488
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