Cheap Z1 on PH

[Green Genie]

Check out the interior...Jet look away now

http://classifieds.pistonheads.com/clas ... lhd/920091

[Gazza]

Showing all the signs of 118.000 miles, still sounds like a bargain even with the dent in the drivers door.

[TitanTim]

Looks like 118k of unloved use

At that price you could bag a Mint Z3M

Tim.

[chrisp_1]

Looks like Bob Marley smoked a big one or two in the passenger seat

Agreed with Tim, I'd much prefer spending on a Z3M - that said I don't see the appeal on the 1er

[Jet]

Looks like Bob Marley smoked a big one or two in the passenger seat

Agreed with Tim, I'd much prefer spending on a Z3M - that said I don't see the appeal on the 1er

Odd response, thats not what he said.
Has your lack of appreciation for the Z1 got anything to do with the fact your Z3M on PH classifieds , despite being newer, faster, lower mileage and better condition is worth 75% less than a comparable Z1?

The Z3M is more affordable, but the Z1 more desirable, thats its appeal. There are many who prefer to own a rare beaten up Z1, to a more common £8000 Z3M.

We are willing to pay more for our desires I guess.

[geminimustang]

I don't get the appeal of the Z1 either,each to their own.I love the looks of the Z3,any model, from any angle.For me the Z4 only looks good in certain colours and looks positively cheap and nasty in the cockpit with very few exceptions.I look forward to the responses these comments will generate.

[chrisp_1]

Looks like Bob Marley smoked a big one or two in the passenger seat

Agreed with Tim, I'd much prefer spending on a Z3M - that said I don't see the appeal on the 1er

Odd response, thats not what he said.
Has your lack of appreciation for the Z1 got anything to do with the fact your Z3M on PH classifieds , despite being newer, faster, lower mileage and better condition is worth 75% less than a comparable Z1?

The Z3M is more affordable, but the Z1 more desirable, thats its appeal. There are many who prefer to own a rare beaten up Z1, to a more common £8000 Z3M.

We are willing to pay more for our desires I guess.

what has my lack of appreciation for the Z1 and/or my comment got to do with the fact my Z3m is on PH

That said my M looks way better value than that particular Z1 IMHO I was just trying to point out that it's bloody expensive and as you say beaten up a little.

The fact that I don't get the Z1's appeal is just an opinion and in no way affects my ability to appreciate that someone else's opinion may differ to mine - I'm sure yours is a lovely example BTW, no offence in tended to the 1er crew

[F.Brossaud]

Hi,

Condition of the car is quite poor
FTW did the owner do with the car to make such holes in the seat and the leather ?!?

You can find cars in much better condition, with half mileage around 18/20 KEUR (vs 14.5 here)
Sometimes, it is better not to buy "the cheapest"...

[Jet]

what has my lack of appreciation for the Z1 and/or my comment got to do with the fact my Z3m is on PH
That said my M looks way better value than that particular Z1 IMHO I was just trying to point out that it's bloody expensive and as you say beaten up a little.
The fact that I don't get the Z1's appeal is just an opinion and in no way affects my ability to appreciate that someone else's opinion may differ to mine - I'm sure yours is a lovely example BTW, no offence in tended to the 1er crew

Its the way you express that opinion. It appeared as if you had an ulterior motive suggesting you would rather buy a Z3M for 12K, (which you happen to be selling), why not a Boxster, SLK, TT, Z4? Coincidence? Fair enough.

I find it odd when I read these statements as we all love cars, and if you appreciate a persons taste when it differs from your own, then it does not need an explanation, which negates the question on its appeal.

[chrisp_1]

Its the way you express that opinion. It appeared as if you had an ulterior motive suggesting you would rather buy a Z3M for 12K, (which you happen to be selling)

Tim said that you could buy a mint Z3M for that money, which is factually correct even for a coupe . I happen to feel that's where I'd prefer to spend my cash on this occasion. This shouldn't be surprising as I do own a Z3M

why not a Boxster, SLK, TT, Z4?

.

They don't seem to be that comparable price wise, Boxsters, SLK's, TT's are all way newer cars at that value. Valid point re the Z4 though, I'd much prefer one of them to that particular Z1 I'll contunue to explain being as you did ask me to,....

I just can't bring myself to take the risk of engine problems with a Boxster S as I don't have the facilities to work on it (arse in the air) or the cash to pay someone else to do it.

I did once fleetingly consider an early SLK until I read reviews TBH I'd probably get an older SL special edition if I could bear to live with the interior.

TT's, yes they're great, I loved my previous 225 coupe with remap but it wasn't and still isn't in the same league as a Z3M. Although I'd have another in a shot as prices are v.keen now.

Z4's, yes I'd have one if I could afford an M version, which I can't

I find it odd when I read these statements as we all love cars, and if you appreciate a persons taste when it differs from your own, then it does not need an explanation, which negates the question on its appeal.

I can't understand why you took exception to my reply, I suppose I could have said 'man that's a rough arse car' and had done with it but Tim happened to prompt me down the Z3M comparison.

Anyway, no bad thing - its good we all see things slightly differently, it makes the forum a much more interesting read

[Racing Tortoise]

The only Z3 that remotely interests me is the Z3M Coupe because it's appealingly barmy. As a general rule, I find the (1st generation) Z4 a much more appealing car in both roadster and coupe form to the Z3. But none of them are comparable to a Z1, which is simply a different sort of car to all BMW's other Z models, which tend not to be beacons of technological innovation or engineering ingenuity, unlike the Z1.

[Jet]

I can't understand why you took exception to my reply, I suppose I could have said 'man that's a rough arse car' and had done with it but Tim happened to prompt me down the Z3M comparison.

No offence taken, like you I am just very passionate about my car.

You don't have to like them, but if not for the Z1, there would be no Z3M

[TitanTim]

The only Z3 that remotely interests me is the Z3M Coupe because it's appealingly barmy. As a general rule, I find the (1st generation) Z4 a much more appealing car in both roadster and coupe form to the Z3. But none of them are comparable to a Z1, which is simply a different sort of car to all BMW's other Z models, which tend not to be beacons of technological innovation or engineering ingenuity, unlike the Z1.

I would be interested to know how you come to the conclusion that the Z1 is more technologically advanced than the rest of the Zed range? The only gimmick I see is the doors and thats it? no different than the E89s retractible hardtop roof gimmicky wise, or am I missing something?

Tim.

[resunoiz]

as I knew, the Z1 was "experimental" due to the doors as you said, but also for strong studies on aerodynamic that gave her a good cx for that era, and a lot of studies for particular plastic parts projected to be easily and speedly changeable (something that today we can easily see on the new car makers politics..not repaires but piece changers...not a strait good thing, I know) and guarantee weights reduction. Was one of the first car with "integrated in design" rollbar on the rest of the car project.
and (not sure if it's totally true) one of the first car with lenticular headlamps.

so, not anly a roadster, but a "know how" experiment, with solutions that we can find as regular on modern productions and was not "so-standard" for the era
what makes me feel it's true, is the fact that was on the market for a not so long time, like an "style exercise".

Z3 is a stunning car in design, but effectively a "meltdown" of E30 and E36 parts mechanically and engineeristically (hope this word translating is real!! ) speaking

Z4 too has a lot in common with the contemporary production

[chrisp_1]

You don't have to like them, but if not for the Z1, there would be no Z3M

Good point. It's not that I don't like them, a good one would be a nice present from someone I was surprised to see that £12k for a rough one can be considered cheap

I remember seeing a Ferrari Mondial QV (blue paint / crema leather) with only 40k on the clock for only £12k around May 2012 from a dealer with warranty. It had just had cam-belts done and looked pretty much mint. That was a bargain, I should have traded the old Alpina and MX5 for that rather than buy the M Roadster in hind-sight. I'd be alot better off right now if I had, can't see and equivalent anywhere for less than £17k

[Del]

I am interested in the evolution and design of German sports cars. I love the old models like the 1930s BMW 328 and the old Porsches – many of the latter being broadly based on the original VW Beetle design. I have never seen a Z1 in the flesh as they are so rare. I wonder whether the Z1 comes from the “same design” school as the Porsche 914 and VW K70?

[resunoiz]

I am interested in the evolution and design of German sports cars. I love the old models like the 1930s BMW 328 and the old Porsches – many of the latter being broadly based on the original VW Beetle design. I have never seen a Z1 in the flesh as they are so rare. I wonder whether the Z1 comes from the “same design” school as the Porsche 914 and VW K70?

as far as I known, the Z1 was designed by Ulrich Bez and his team, that at the very end of the process wnto to porsche. maybe this can be an aswer to you?

[Green Genie]

The only Z3 that remotely interests me is the Z3M Coupe because it's appealingly barmy. As a general rule, I find the (1st generation) Z4 a much more appealing car in both roadster and coupe form to the Z3. But none of them are comparable to a Z1, which is simply a different sort of car to all BMW's other Z models, which tend not to be beacons of technological innovation or engineering ingenuity, unlike the Z1.

I would be interested to know how you come to the conclusion that the Z1 is more technologically advanced than the rest of the Zed range? The only gimmick I see is the doors and thats it? no different than the E89s retractible hardtop roof gimmicky wise, or am I missing something?

Tim.

Tim I hope the attached link explains some of the futuristic design of the Z1 which we now take for granted on BMW's such as the 'Z axle' later to be used on the E36 etc.

However, design and construction techniques were considerably more radical. At its core is a galvanised steel chassis with a composite-fibre sandwich floorpan to increase rigidity. The monocoque backbone is then covered with non load-bearing plastic panels all of which gives substantial credence to Munich’s brochure claim that the Z1 is “built rust-free for eternity”.

The construction section predates the Smart car whilst the aerodynamics section explains downforce without the need for a boot mounted spoiler.

Remember this was the late 80s

http://www.bmwz1.co.uk/z1home.htm

[Racing Tortoise]

The only Z3 that remotely interests me is the Z3M Coupe because it's appealingly barmy. As a general rule, I find the (1st generation) Z4 a much more appealing car in both roadster and coupe form to the Z3. But none of them are comparable to a Z1, which is simply a different sort of car to all BMW's other Z models, which tend not to be beacons of technological innovation or engineering ingenuity, unlike the Z1.

I would be interested to know how you come to the conclusion that the Z1 is more technologically advanced than the rest of the Zed range? The only gimmick I see is the doors and thats it? no different than the E89s retractible hardtop roof gimmicky wise, or am I missing something?

Tim.

I think others have answered. But to add my tuppence-worth, BMW was awarded a whole range of patents for features first seen on the Z1, which being a viciously expensive, low-volume and largely hand-assembled car was an ideal test-bed. Other notable features of the Z1 (which went into production 25 years ago!) included:

- first use of the famed Z-axle;
- the composite fibre floor GG mentions;
- integrated aerodynamics (see concave bonnet and exhaust backbox shaped like an aerofoil which channels air up over it and out through a vent between the rear lights, which conspire to create excellent downforce without the need for spoilers, and a completely flat body undertray years before Ferrari did it);
- non-load bearing removable bodywork made out of a variety of advanced patented thermoplastics (predating current bumper design and the interchangeable bodywork you see on a Smart);
- I believe it was, as mentioned, the first production car fitted with projector headlights;
- integrated roll-over protection before Mercedes introduced this on the R129 SL;
- torque tube (not common - examples of two current cars using this set-up are the Lexus LF-A and Merc SLS supercars);

There will be other points I've missed. But it was all very advanced stuff for the late '80s.

By constrast, the Z3, both generations of Z4 and Z8 are all pretty conventionally engineered by the standards of their respective days. And in the Z3's case, de-contented, since it does with the Z-axle.

The only really conventional aspect of a Z1 is its engine, which is the venerable M20 straight six from the E30 325i (actually the 325iX, as the 4wd model has a modified sump to accommodate the front drive axle and this more compact design allows the Z1 its low bonnet line). It's lovely, but it's a shame BMW didn't come up with something a little snortier.

[TitanTim]

Thanks for the info guys, very interesting reading, looks like I will have to add a Z1 to the collection

Cheers,

Tim.

[whiteminks]

Love the Z1 ...... a design icon. Would have added it to my collection long ago if it had been made in RHD

[kamagloire]

Yep, classic car with it's place in history. Pity there was no right hand drive option. Are they well supported for parts? Can't possibly be a daily drive can it? Maybe that's what happened to this one; someone treated it like a Cortina.

[Jet]

Yep, classic car with it's place in history. Pity there was no right hand drive option. Are they well supported for parts? Can't possibly be a daily drive can it? Maybe that's what happened to this one; someone treated it like a Cortina.

On the flipside, you'll find 99% of Z1 owners are glad its LHD. In RHD it would be as common as the Z3 and worth less than a Cortina, with many more in the condition seen in this ad.
Maintenance costs, Insurance, thefts are negligible. Body panels and major mechanical parts rarely fail, new parts are a pig, and Interior is obsolete.

[tg184]

>Maintenance costs, Insurance, thefts are negligible. Body panels and major mechanical parts rarely fail

I get that.

>Interior is obsolete.

Yeah, I get that, too

>new parts are a pig

I...er, no, actually, I don't understand. Which parts? Pig=unavailable? Or just (!) expensive? Can you expand a bit for someone who hasn't taken the plunge yet? Thanks!

[Jet]

>new parts are a pig, I...er, no, actually, I don't understand. Which parts? Pig=unavailable? Or just (!) expensive? Can you expand a bit for someone who hasn't taken the plunge yet? Thanks!

Both really, as demand slows and parts shelves diminish, they are added to the obsolete list and pricing structure "revised", as its not economically viable for any manufacturer to reproduce at the original prices when demand was higher. Thankfully the joy outweighs the pain 100 to 1, and its worth every drop of blood sweat and tears.

So TG, share, what plunge you taking?

[geminimustang]

As my earlier comment stated,i don't get the appeal of the Z1.However,my total,unqualified respect to Jet and others for keeping their cars on the road.We're already finding on our near 16 year old Z3,maintenance,MOT's,tax & insurance before we even talk of improvements is expensive.This may explain why we're seeing more and more Z3's for sale on this forum.My Bank Manager,namely Mrs M,would hire a hit man before she'd let me get near to buying a Z1,just as well they're not for me.

[Racing Tortoise]

Absent any unexpected body parts failures (touch wood), I have found the Z1 to be an inexpensive car to run.

- The tax is standard pre-2001;
- The fuel consumption is normal (unremarkable);
- I service mine annually regardless of mileage but that's out of choice and I think the last oil & filter service was £150ish from a top specialist and maybe £250-300 for an Inspection service;
- Most mechanical parts are E30 and not expensive, even OE (it's anything specific to the Z1 like door switches or trim/body parts that are tricky and expensive);
- The insurance cost is negligible - about £300 for classic cover in central London so presumably cheaper elsewhere;
- the mileage covered is low so things like new tyres and brake discs are needed only very infrequently; and
- it doesn't depreciate.

So I think that comes to comfortably under a grand per annum before fuel and improvements.

[Jet]

As my earlier comment stated,i don't get the appeal of the Z1.However,my total,unqualified respect to Jet and others for keeping their cars on the road.We're already finding on our near 16 year old Z3,maintenance,MOT's,tax & insurance before we even talk of improvements is expensive.This may explain why we're seeing more and more Z3's for sale on this forum.My Bank Manager,namely Mrs M,would hire a hit man before she'd let me get near to buying a Z1,just as well they're not for me.

Judging by the responses (apart from Whiteminks, who is the only Z3 owner who seems to know what she is talking about ) there are surprisingly alot of Z3 owners that agree with you. RTT has given a pretty sound Technical brief on inception and design, its resale value and Zero depreciation is there to see, but you all baulk at its shape

At these sort of prices, rarely does anybody buy a Z1 on a whim, most of us take a long term view on ownership, its the car you buy after you have driven everything else. Its like getting married after being a playa, its not the fastest or most modern, but the one you feel most comfortable with and can see yourself driving in years to come. Plenty of time for Mrs M to change her mind

[geminimustang]

Jet,i can't argue with anything you've said.You make a good argument for the Z1 and i totally respect your thinking.

[Jet]

GM,

Just curious but have you ever driven, or know someone who owns a Z1?

[geminimustang]

Jet,no is the answer.just seen it in photos and video.For me,it doesn't grab my attention.I accept that driving one gives a whole new perspective on the car.Every time i see a Z3,i'm spinning my head to get a better view,a real buzz that never ever leaves me.The z1 doesn't have that effect much as I respect it floats the boat of others.

[horke]

The Car was for sale in Düsseldorf - about 3-4 Months ago. For about the same price (but in Euro ...)