Carbon fibre/fibreglass bonnet interest

diddykong157 · Post by **diddykong157** » Mon 18 Jan, 2010 20:04

Just goy a reply from a company regarding carbon fibre and fibreglass bonnets for the Z3. Just want to see who is interested and possibly organise a group buy.

Here it is;

"Hi,

thanks for getting in touch, very sorry for the late reply to your enquiry.

We don’t currently have the production moulds for the Z3 bonnet. Typically, our bonnets cost between £240 and £600 depending on spec (see below), but we’d need to organise a group-buy or quantity order of at least 5 units in order to make production viable (it costs us around £1500 to make a new set of production moulds). We’d still be able to make this as a one-off, but it’d be £1800 for a single unit (fully carbon road-spec). Here’s our typical price list / more info:

Our carbon fibre bonnets are all made-to-order, which means you can choose how light/strong you’d like them to be, and to suit a range of budgets:

“Road spec” - means direct replacement, full replica inside and out, ready to bolt-on. “Race spec” means a reinforced outer skin, for use with bonnet pins (no inner frame structure).

£595. Fully carbon Road-Spec. (4 - 6kg)

£495. Standard Road-Spec (carbon fibre outer skin, fibreglass, glossy black inner skin). (5 - 7kg)

£395. Fully carbon Race-Spec. (honeycomb core to add strength and stiffness) (2 - 5kg)

£245. Fully fibreglass Road-spec. (6 - 8kg)

£245. Fibreglass Race-spec. (3 - 6kg)

Please feel free to call or email if there's anything else we can help you with, or if you'd like to place an order.

Best regards, Mike

www.performance-trim.com

07717418174

08458339690"

Michael McGovern · Post by **Michael McGovern** » Mon 18 Jan, 2010 20:32

will this be a z3 mould or the m one? i do think they are different and the m one will fit both, may be wrong about that? what is the weight saving on this?

markrnorton · Post by **markrnorton** » Mon 18 Jan, 2010 21:07

I would be interested but I would want to check them out and go have a look around

SP30 · Post by **SP30** » Mon 18 Jan, 2010 22:13

I will take one in road trim......piccies first though.

pay-pal waiting...

<<<<SHOW ME THE CARBON>>>>

Post by **Robert T** » Mon 18 Jan, 2010 22:55

Michael McGovern wrote:will this be a z3 mould or the m one? i do think they are different and the m one will fit both, may be wrong about that?

The ///M and ordinary Z3 bonnets are identical - see here. They are customised to the model by changing the gills which are a separate part.

Cheers R.

Jonttt · Post by **Jonttt** » Mon 18 Jan, 2010 23:23

My only concern would be quality of fit ?

Michael McGovern · Post by **Michael McGovern** » Mon 18 Jan, 2010 23:30

ok cool thanks for clearing that up, so what you get is the shell, no brackets, badges, front or side grills? I presume you could take these off the originals but any idea on pricing and where to source these parts? EuroCarParts?

the original is 27.7kg

diddykong157 · Post by **diddykong157** » Mon 18 Jan, 2010 23:45

Found this on their website;

Factory visits by appointment only:
Performance-trim
Mulsanne Sports Cars Ltd
Unit 5, Polthooks Farm Ind. Est.
Clay Lane,
Fishbourne,
West Sussex
PO18 8AH

Someone nearby can have a look and give us some feedback on their factory.

I believe they take a mould of a new bonnet without any grilles, bmw badge or side vents, then make a copy from the mould using carbon fibre or fibreglass.
Swap your existing grilles and badge to the new bonnet... Thats what I hope anyway!

I will reply to the email giving him a link to the forum, he may be able to answer any questions better than I can.

Michael McGovern · Post by **Michael McGovern** » Tue 19 Jan, 2010 02:34

even though its in West Sussex its not actually that close to me, however i am coming back from London tomorrow, if its nearer to anyone else let me know otherwise i can make a detour.

my cousin has my slr so if i go its phone pictures only sorry.

johnjo · Post by **johnjo** » Tue 19 Jan, 2010 09:03

I would be interested in a carbon road trim one, providing quality and fit OK

c_w · Post by **c_w** » Tue 19 Jan, 2010 09:49

Have linked this thread on the z3mcoupe forum as I know a few people were interested on there about a carbon bonnet.

Does this company know how big/shaped the Z3 bonnet is? Just asking he has said the price range is a "typical" one, and we all know most bonnets are mainly just flat small squares!!!, not the entire front end of the car as per the Z3!

stu · Post by **stu** » Tue 19 Jan, 2010 19:08

I'd suggest some more information on the details of the bonnet before we all get too carried away. Tempting as it looks at first appearance I'd suggest there's some detail to be added for the following areas (for me to express more than a passing interest) ;

1) Bonnet Hinge Attachents, type, strength (loading calcs) and durability (life) of the mountings and how are the threaded inserts incorporated into the design?

2) Same with the catches and manual bonnet release? Are they just going to allow any numpty to drill and pop rivet the fixtures & fittings (like sound proofing)?

3) Fit (panel gaps to be expcted, carbon type proposed and why it's suitable for the job) & Paint (requirements/compatibility) and durability of the bonnet? What product warranty is explicit?

4) Fitting process/requirements? Or is the price fitted?

Not being negative here, but I am a procurement professional.

Jonttt · Post by **Jonttt** » Tue 19 Jan, 2010 19:17

I think Stu is bob on.

If the fit / fitting are not 100% it would look crap on a BMW which is renowned for the quality of panel fit etc....

To design and fit a working mold to this standard is not a cheap process and I was surprised how cheap their claimed "one off" costs where, hence my original comment about quality of fit. I would not like to be paying to be a guinea pig so they can refine the fit etc.....

There is a chicken and egg in that I would expect a fully finished "demo" one fitted to a zed before orders are taken (someone volunteers a donor car they can work on, he gets a cheap / free one for the hassle). The down side to the manufacturer is that he has to invest in this without guaranteed orders.

In a nutshell the price seems too cheap to me

Michael McGovern · Post by **Michael McGovern** » Tue 19 Jan, 2010 19:30

you want me 2 go there then? if u do write what u want me 2 do and ask. if someone else wants to go thats fine

Jonttt · Post by **Jonttt** » Tue 19 Jan, 2010 20:51

Michael McGovern wrote:you want me 2 go there then? if u do write what u want me 2 do and ask. if someone else wants to go thats fine

Sounds like a volunteer, if you don't mind

TitanTim · Post by **TitanTim** » Tue 19 Jan, 2010 21:57

Just to put a dampener on it

I couldn't imagine anything worse than having the bonnet removed and replaced on the Zed unless accident damaged and necessary to be done. If its formed from a mould off the original I would be surprised that fit would be spot on and as Jon mentioned it would only have to be out a little too look awful. If weight is not an issue why not have it carbon wrapped?

This is all the rage by the VXR crowd on their Corsas and Astras

So who is going to volunteer a carbon bonnet on their Titan Zed

Tim.

z3Dave · Post by **z3Dave** » Tue 19 Jan, 2010 23:04

Id be interested, as long as fit and quality are up to standard.

Michael McGovern · Post by **Michael McGovern** » Wed 20 Jan, 2010 08:59

iv seen a carbon hardtop which looks very nice, also http://www.ca-automotive.co.uk/ do carbon parts but they seem alot more expensive.

il give the guys a call in a bit and ask them if i can come down today.

Michael McGovern · Post by **Michael McGovern** » Wed 20 Jan, 2010 10:13

spoke to the guy today and he said its fine if i come over to have a look let me know what you want me to ask him etc.

performance-trim · Post by **performance-trim** » Wed 20 Jan, 2010 19:21

Hi,

to introduce myself, I'm Mike from performance-trim.com (Mulsanne sports cars ltd).

Michael from the forum came for a visit today, so I'll let him update you on his opinions of our workshop and products.

I'd like to confirm that we'd be interested in taking on a group-buy for the Z3 bonnets, as long as there is enough interested to make the production viable. Prices quoted in my initial email were a little low for the Z3 (sorry, I have a generic reply to most enquiries like that).

It'd be more like £995+vat for fully carbon, £795+vat for 'standard carbon' or £495+vat for fibreglass. This is purely because of the size of the bonnet and all the extra costs associated with that from moulding to production.

In order to go forward, we'd need a minimum 5 orders for fully carbon bonnets, or orders totaling £5000+vat or more. We need this level of order to make the production moulding viable. We'd also need a *perfect* original bonnet to use as the pattern - we usually buy these new (anyone know the cost of one from BMW?). Depending on the costs, and the interest we get in the carbon bonnets, we can usually source a bonnet ourselves as part of the deal.

Hope this info helps. I'd expect that you want to visit www.performance-trim.com to take a look at some of the other parts we offer.

I rarely have enough time to keep checking on all of the forums that I'm a member on (40+ forums), so please call or email me directly if you need any quesitons to be answered quickly.

Best regards, Mike

www.performance-trim.com

07717418174
08458339690

z3Dave · Post by **z3Dave** » Thu 21 Jan, 2010 01:24

Im Duncan Bannatyne, and Im out!

(unless prices where more like the original quotes

)

SP30 · Post by **SP30** » Thu 21 Jan, 2010 15:13

Still very much up for the standard carbon....

I think the producer is putting forward a "big ask"...

If he wants to make money then maybe he could take the production risk and not pass it onto us!.

It's Almost as though he's doing us a favour at £1000 a time lol.

andyhallas · Post by **andyhallas** » Thu 21 Jan, 2010 15:58

Chaps,

Used to be in this sort of game myself. A couple of points to note:

1. Panel fit is a swine and will never be as good as the original

2. Epoxy resin yellows over time - even the high gloss cosmetic resins with stabilisers will yellow because of UV. The problem is made worse on parts like a bonnet due to temperature effects. The only way to protect against yellowing is to have the bonnet lacquered with a very high quality, UV blocking clear coat. If this isn't included in the price it will cost you a few hundred quid more.

3. The other effect you get with carbon fibre panels over time is 'print through'. The thermal expansion of the carbon is different to that of the resin so with heat cycles this differential expansion leaves a witness mark of the carbon cloth on the surface - looks horrible when it catches the light. This is why all McLaren F1 roadcars have a respray every few years as part of their servicing schedule.

4. If the bonnet is 'road spec' the internal spider might witness through over time - depends how the skins are bonded together.

5. Large, flatish panels can be prone to distortion during the cure process which has implications on fit and finish as well as how easy the bonnet is to close.

6. Standard rolls of carbon cloth come at about 1-1.25m wide - I doubt you'd get a full bonnet out of the width. Therefore, there will be a join - if these guys are good they will 'herring-bone' the join down the centre of the bonnet (i.e. leave a symmetrically opposite effect split down centreline).

I would strongly recommend taking a look at a product that has been on a car for a few years and covered a few thousand miles.

Even as a fan of plastic cars I wouldn't contemplate a cosmetic carbon fibre bonnet for my car.

Hope this is helpful.

Cheers,

Andy

Michael McGovern · Post by **Michael McGovern** » Thu 21 Jan, 2010 16:18

visited the workshop yesterday, the guy took me round and showed me everything from moulding to fitting quality on some cars he had.

He explained that are bonnets are large compared to a lot of cars especially the vw types so i can see where the additional costing comes from.

He said there was the possibility of using carbon on the outside and fibre glass on the inside to reduce cost, i suppose its a matter of choice. He also said that he could if required get the bonnet sprayed for us.

a saving of atleast 2/3 of the original weight should be achieved also. I lifted a 911 bonnet and a carbon one, massive difference in weight.

performance-trim · Post by **performance-trim** » Thu 21 Jan, 2010 16:22

SP30 wrote:
If he wants to make money then maybe he could take the production risk and not pass it onto us!.

It's Almost as though he's doing us a favour at £1000 a time lol.

Its a fair comment, and something we hear a lot. Trouble is, with thousands of products that we could be developing for all makes and models, we need to be assured of a return from the outset on this particular part. Its a two-way deal - we're happy to develop a new product at our expense, if there's enough interest for people to place deposits. We rarely make much money on the first batch of any part. If there aren't 5 people who want a given product, then it probably isn't a part we should be pursuing. (We sold 15 escort cosworth bonnets in the first group-buy, and it's been popular ever since. We took on the mk1 fiesta bonnet group-buy for 4 orders, and haven't sold any more in a year..).

performance-trim · Post by **performance-trim** » Thu 21 Jan, 2010 17:21

andyhallas wrote: 1. Panel fit is a swine and will never be as good as the original

True - to some extent. We don't skimp on moulds, they're built to last and are reinforced to prevent distortion. We also jig the two halves of a bonnet together as it's being bonded, to ensure that its the same shape as the original.

andyhallas wrote: 2. Epoxy resin yellows over time - even the high gloss cosmetic resins with stabilisers will yellow because of UV. The problem is made worse on parts like a bonnet due to temperature effects. The only way to protect against yellowing is to have the bonnet lacquered with a very high quality, UV blocking clear coat. If this isn't included in the price it will cost you a few hundred quid more.

We don't use epoxy resins, because of this reason. The resins we use are designed originally for making clear roofing - meaning it's UV stable and water stable. Some people do like to add extra lacquer for a deeper shine, but 95% of customers don't feel the need. I'd expect most Z3 owners would want to paint these to match their car.

andyhallas wrote: 3. The other effect you get with carbon fibre panels over time is 'print through'. The thermal expansion of the carbon is different to that of the resin so with heat cycles this differential expansion leaves a witness mark of the carbon cloth on the surface - looks horrible when it catches the light. This is why all McLaren F1 roadcars have a respray every few years as part of their servicing schedule.

True, unavoidable with cosmetic finish carbon. If you find an answer to this, Pagani, Ferrari and Lamborghini and koenigsegg would probably like to know about it. If it'd being painted, then there are some barrier layers we can use to prevent print-through, but this wouldn't show the carbon weave.

andyhallas wrote: 4. If the bonnet is 'road spec' the internal spider might witness through over time - depends how the skins are bonded together.

Composites can distort over time, and I've yet to see a fibreglass bonnet that hasn't distorted in the first bit of sunshine, especially the ones that haven't been bonded together with the right adhesives. However, our carbon laminate uses a thin honeycomb core material, which has proven to prevent disortions / witness marks in heat cycles and weather.

andyhallas wrote: 5. Large, flatish panels can be prone to distortion during the cure process which has implications on fit and finish as well as how easy the bonnet is to close.

Minimised by our jigging and assembly process. Some tolerence may be expected, but nothing drastic enough to visibly change panel gaps beyond adjustment, or effect fitting / shutting beyond adjustment.

andyhallas wrote: 6. Standard rolls of carbon cloth come at about 1-1.25m wide - I doubt you'd get a full bonnet out of the width. Therefore, there will be a join - if these guys are good they will 'herring-bone' the join down the centre of the bonnet (i.e. leave a symmetrically opposite effect split down centreline).

Porsche 997

BMW E21

In general, there are advantages and disadvantages to having a carbon fibre bonnet. If performance is your thing, then it can be a good way to save weight (which brings all the associated performance benfits).

namatjira · Post by **namatjira** » Mon 22 Mar, 2010 16:08

I'm in. No question. A saving of about 20 kg is very useful. I'm not bothered about the print through etc as I will be repainting to match the rest of the car.

Just let me know when there is enough.

Also you guys who said that it was too cheap initially and then the comments when the price was amended to reflect the bonnet size just are too funny.

A grand for a cf bonnet is very very good.

Cheers

Zcootz · Post by **Zcootz** » Wed 07 Mar, 2012 11:01

Did this lead to anything? I could be doing with a f/glass bonnet.

Zcootz · Post by **Zcootz** » Wed 07 Mar, 2012 11:03

Ah... the company has stopped trading

shantybeater · Post by **shantybeater** » Sat 10 Mar, 2012 18:18

Shame because assuming it was identical to the M bonnet in design and fit I'd be sold on it

shantybeater · Post by **shantybeater** » Sun 11 Mar, 2012 11:35

^^ unfortunately its got stupid bonnet scoops and not CF

as-racing · Post by **as-racing** » Fri 16 Mar, 2012 21:14

Hello all,

If you guys are still interested in composite parts I'll be making moulds and parts later in the year for the Z3 roadster (non-widebody), hopefully around summertime. I'm planning on making moulds for: hardtop, bonnet, boot, sills and all quarter panels.

Let me know if you're interested in either carbon or glass parts and I'll keep you posted.

Cheers,

Andy

Zcootz · Post by **Zcootz** » Sat 17 Mar, 2012 12:05

I'd be interested Andy.

stu · Post by **stu** » Sat 17 Mar, 2012 13:16

Sounds good to me Andy. Can you just confirm how you engineer the bonnet hinge mounts and latch mounts please?

as-racing · Post by **as-racing** » Sat 17 Mar, 2012 18:53

stu wrote:Sounds good to me Andy. Can you just confirm how you engineer the bonnet hinge mounts and latch mounts please?

Those areas will be locally re-enforced with extra plies to create hard points. To be honest, the parts will really only be suitable for track use - i.e really light (not very stiff and pretty flexible) and are inteded to be secured with bonnet catches. I'll post photos once I get around to doing this, if this is what you're after then I'll make some more to order.

Cheers

Andy

as-racing · Post by **as-racing** » Sat 17 Mar, 2012 19:40

Stu,

Just read your first post. I plan on making my bonnet (and all other parts) very simply, as minimising weight will be the only priority. Therefore, I'll only be reproducing the bonnet outer surface and not the internal skin as well. I will be "any numpty" and will simply drill through the part and pop rivet aero catches in place and get rid of the latch and hinges completely.

If you're interested, to do it properly there are several different techniques. Firstly, like I mentioned you can just build up a stack of local re-enforcing plies that can then be drilled and fitted with metalic threaded inserts such as helicoils or tapex inserts. Or, if you want something a bit more fancy- as per composite chassis contruction, you can capture a machined aluminium block (or Ti if money isn't an issue!) into the laminate to create a hard point that can then be drilled and fitted with tapex threaded inserts. Load and life calcs are a bit ott for a non-structural part to be honest, however, the techniques mentioned will provide a permanent fixing point that isn't going anywhere! Also, if doing it properly, the inner skin would also be moulded and a separate composite part made which can then be bonded to the first piece. Have a look at anchor nuts, which can be riveted to the inner skin to provide fixing points for the sound proofing material etc.

Let me know if you've got any other composite questions, I'm happy to help.

Cheers,
Andy

as-racing · Post by **as-racing** » Sat 17 Mar, 2012 20:23

Zedonist wrote:Hi Andy,

Very interested in your project I will watch your blog with interest, and hopefully pick up some tips for the road on my M44

One question on your road panels (not your race), will they be bagged with a room temp cure or a two stage @ temperature cure and have honeycomb strengthening ribs? I would be interested in a good bagged carbon finish article especially with the relevant Alu machined blocks in place to take the hinges and the bonnet catch (or relevant double skin to drill and rivnut), I think if people are painting, a good finish glass part would suffice and reduce cost a little.

All parts will be properly made in an autoclave using pre-preg composites - i.e the real deal and not just wet layup/infusion stuff! I'm planning on only making the lightweight race parts, but if there are enough people interested I'll consider the full road OEM replacement. Word of warning, though - they wont be cheap, as you start talking machined ally inserts, things get pretty expensive. The race parts will be a lot cheaper, as they will literally just be one or two plies of heavy weight structural glass fibre with no hard points.

Am hoping to start making moulds within the next couple of months, so keep an eye out on the blog for updates and we'll take it from there.

Zcootz · Post by **Zcootz** » Sat 17 Mar, 2012 20:57

Lightweight and secured by aero-catches or pins is fine and dandy with me!

Just out of interest, why are you not going for the wide body or facelift rear panels?

as-racing · Post by **as-racing** » Sat 17 Mar, 2012 22:26

Zcootz wrote:Lightweight and secured by aero-catches or pins is fine and dandy with me!

Just out of interest, why are you not going for the wide body or facelift rear panels?

Simply because I don't have the panels. If I can get hold of them then I'll do the widebody panels instead.

Andy

swamper · Post by **swamper** » Sat 17 Mar, 2012 22:42

fiber glass hard top...now thats interesting..

as-racing · Post by **as-racing** » Sat 17 Mar, 2012 23:36

I'm well aware the hardtops are already fibreglass, but they're chopped strand rubbish and way a ton!My aim is to take weight out of everything I can, so I'll be making a copy of it, but using about 1mm skin thickness of glass, maybe less and in carbon. We'll see....

shantybeater · Post by **shantybeater** » Sun 18 Mar, 2012 10:47

this thread just got very interesting...

TitanTim · Post by **TitanTim** » Sun 18 Mar, 2012 11:56

A Hamann carbon replica hard top would be just the ticket thanks

Tim.

pingu · Post by **pingu** » Sun 18 Mar, 2012 13:03

I wouldn't get too excited unless you are racing only.

asracing, will you be making road-spec panels as well, or just ones for your race car?

shantybeater · Post by **shantybeater** » Sun 18 Mar, 2012 13:42

TitanTim wrote:A Hamann carbon replica hard top would be just the ticket thanks

Tim.

x2 to this!! (and with the humps!)

Zcootz · Post by **Zcootz** » Sun 18 Mar, 2012 13:46

as-racing wrote:
Zcootz wrote:Lightweight and secured by aero-catches or pins is fine and dandy with me!

Just out of interest, why are you not going for the wide body or facelift rear panels?
Simply because I don't have the panels. If I can get hold of them then I'll do the widebody panels instead.

Andy

I have a facelift 2.8. I'd be happy to send the rear quarters, boot and bumper down if it meant a modest discount on a set of race CF panels???

as-racing · Post by **as-racing** » Sun 18 Mar, 2012 19:52

pingu wrote:I wouldn't get too excited unless you are racing only.

asracing, will you be making road-spec panels as well, or just ones for your race car?

Just the race panels to begin with, but if there's enough demand for the road parts we'll see...

Zcootz,

May take you up on that, will give you a shout in a few months when I start on the moulds.

Cheers,

Andy

fok · Post by **fok** » Sun 23 Sep, 2012 22:08

Any updated info on this............?

as-racing · Post by **as-racing** » Wed 06 Feb, 2013 20:36

Evening,

I'm way behind schedule on the composite parts but am starting the moulds for the smaller items like the front quarter panels & boot lid this month. If there's enough demand, I can make additional glass or carbon parts.

Price will depend on interest, but bear in mind these will not be direct OEM swaps. They will be designed primarily for race use, so that will mean really thin laminates and sorting your own mounting methods etc. This will of course, be reflected in the price.

Will put up pictures once I've made the first mould this weekend. Let me know if interested....

Andy

zroadster.net