Stung

Moomah · Post by **Moomah** » Tue 09 Aug, 2011 13:06

Well we have been stung.

Some of you will remember postings regarding how to find out about how many owners a car has had, the description with BMW not matching what we were driving etc. Well the engine number now confirms it.

We have a stolen car, with engine numbers changed etc etc. We are currently in contact with the trader for a refund.

We won't be able to replace her anytime soon as we have used up all our funds and £3,000 won't get us another 2.8 We paid more but that included tax and extras we added later

Would love Jonty's 2.8 that he has for sale but sadly just can't find the funds at the moment....

Hey ho....we are going to be z3 less for a while....

alec.m · Post by **alec.m** » Tue 09 Aug, 2011 13:19

So sorry to hear that. I hope you get your money back without too much hassle. I know how you must feel as my Niece was done recently. I told her she must get an HPI check before she bought anything but she said they were such a nice family she didn`t need to as she could trust them. It came to light when she found a car she really wanted and tried to trade it in. She was gutted.

Moomah · Post by **Moomah** » Tue 09 Aug, 2011 13:24

The HPI came up clear as such. It recorded the changes in number plates (mainly private ones) and the fact it was stolen, but no damage and nothing recorded as being changed at all It was only detective work by ourselves and BMW.

Not a nice feeling. At least its a trader and she was as shocked as us and is keen to keep her reputation. I feel for your relative

seasurfer · Post by **seasurfer** » Tue 09 Aug, 2011 15:43

Feel sorry for the misfortune of having bought a stolen car, it must be pretty awful to find that out, after been so careful to get it HPI checked aswell.

Hope you find something soon, prices are very low at the moment.

Gill

Mouldy · Post by **Mouldy** » Tue 09 Aug, 2011 16:09

Moomah wrote: . . . . . . . . . . We won't be able to replace her anytime soon as we have used up all our funds and £3,000 won't get us another 2.8 We paid more but that included tax and extras we added later Would love Jonty's 2.8 that he has for sale but sadly just can't find the funds at the moment....

Hey ho....we are going to be z3 less for a while....

Hi

Sorry to hear about your problem. You have a pm.

billz · Post by **billz** » Tue 09 Aug, 2011 16:11

Shouldnt matter about the extras you had they should refund the total cost, even if it was for a tank of fuel.
bill

Moomah · Post by **Moomah** » Tue 09 Aug, 2011 19:37

We are fighting with the trader at the moment as they are refusing to refund.. ....

Thanks for the kind messages.

Moomah · Post by **Moomah** » Tue 09 Aug, 2011 19:39

Hey ho....we are going to be z3 less for a while....[/quote]

Hi

Sorry to hear about your problem. You have a pm.[/quote]

No PM received Mouldy

Mouldy · Post by **Mouldy** » Tue 09 Aug, 2011 20:45

Moomah wrote:Hey ho....we are going to be z3 less for a while....

Don't know what happened, but have resent.

senna · Post by **senna** » Tue 09 Aug, 2011 22:09

Moomah wrote:Well we have been stung.

Some of you will remember postings regarding how to find out about how many owners a car has had, the description with BMW not matching what we were driving etc. Well the engine number now confirms it.

We have a stolen car, with engine numbers changed etc etc. We are currently in contact with the trader for a refund.

We won't be able to replace her anytime soon as we have used up all our funds and £3,000 won't get us another 2.8 We paid more but that included tax and extras we added later Would love Jonty's 2.8 that he has for sale but sadly just can't find the funds at the moment....

Hey ho....we are going to be z3 less for a while....

Sorry to hear about your loss.

Once you get it all sorted and refunded is there any way you can warn other ZR.net users about how to avoid this happening. I put up a sticky with my stolen car

freds dad · Post by **freds dad** » Wed 10 Aug, 2011 06:17

Moomah wrote:We are fighting with the trader at the moment as they are refusing to refund.. ....

Thanks for the kind messages.

Name and shame the dealer on every forum you can get access to and stand outside their premises advising potential buyers that sell stolen cars.

The second one should work.

Good luck

Moomah · Post by **Moomah** » Wed 10 Aug, 2011 12:34

freds dad wrote:
Moomah wrote:We are fighting with the trader at the moment as they are refusing to refund.. ....

Thanks for the kind messages.
Name and shame the dealer on every forum you can get access to and stand outside their premises advising potential buyers that sell stolen cars.

The second one should work.

Good luck

Cheers Fred's Dad
They are a dealer but do not have premises per se, but we have taken advice from a retired police officer and have written to the traders outlining the facts, asking for their confirmation that the facts are correct by next Tues and then if nothing, go to small claims court and black listing them with Ebay and Auto Trader where they mainly sell their vehicles. (In hindsight they probably sound dodgy but one part of the business is highly regarded in the area, its the other half that is being the problem!) In the meantime we are seeking out the previous owner to see if he can shed some light on it as well.

Is there a database just to check engine numbers? BMW can't help us and I wonder if by putting the engine number in, we can link a numberplate to it and see what the history is on the engine?

......
Got your PM Mouldy, thanks for thinking of me.

And yes, we are going to do our utmost to tar their trade and will put up a sticky here as well.

Moomah · Post by **Moomah** » Wed 10 Aug, 2011 18:12

Update

My partner spke to both traders today. After a long discussion where they are adament the car is not stolen, they have agreed that if we do investigate further and it proves to be stolen afterall they will refund, but if it just proves there is something illegal with it, they won't

My partner then spoke to another previous owner who had the car for ten years and he confirmed that all the time he had it it was a 2.8 with cream interior and had driven it happily. He had not noticed the engine number being different. He is a good friend of a friend it turns out and is a genuine guy.

So our dilema now is do we continue with the investigation and report it to the police who are the only ones able to check the engine number from what we gather, against stolen carsand lose the chance of getting a refund from the trader or legitimise the engine number with DVLA and keep it,....and risk it

z3chuckles · Post by **z3chuckles** » Wed 10 Aug, 2011 18:33

Moomah wrote:
So our dilema now is do we continue with the investigation and report it to the police who are the only ones able to check the engine number from what we gather, against stolen carsand lose the chance of getting a refund from the trader or legitimise the engine number with DVLA and keep it,....and risk it

Personally, if the car is correct and as it should be and the engine was changed at some point their could be a illegitimate reason for this, especially as you have mentioned that the car had been stolen before in your original post. The Police as far as those I deal with are aware do keep a record of Stolen engines etc, however how accurate this is is open to debate.

If the car was stolen previously, there could be the possibility that the engine was stolen from the vehicle , I had a VR6 many years ago they stripped the interior and engine in 15 mins! Now this car was worth much less and uneconomical to repair however a z3 a number of years ago would be a different proposition.

I would suggest, only by experience in the insurance industry and some of the cases I came across, that you could end up with nothing if you are not careful on this one. Regardless on what trading standards etc say, to prove that a dealer knew something was wrong with a vehicle when they sold it is nearly impossible to prove.

If the Police prove you have stolen parts or vehicle and it has not been recovered, and resold/paid out appropriately, you will stand the loss for the full amount of these and likely to loose the vehicle or parts as it would be impounded and returned to its rightful owner, which could be an insurance company if they have paid out.

The dealer regardless of how wrong I think it is on a moral ground has nothing to repay legally if you cannot prove they sold it knowingly as a stolen or a car with stolen parts. It comes down to experience and bad luck. Harsh I know.

I'm sure lots of other will say go to the police, speak to trading standards etc, and I fully understand where they are coming from, but be confident on the above point first that the dealer is at fault, otherwise you could quite easily end up with no car and no refund. Not being difficult but practical, I have seen so many of my customers loose their cars because of situations like this where they are returned to what is legally the rightful owner.

Just thoughts and opinions based on experience only, I would make it legal and correct and get it checked over and get a VIC check for peace of mind and resale.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed 10 Aug, 2011 18:55

Sorry to hear your news.

Just a point though and only because my mine has had a new engine, these cars are prone to overheating and sometimes the extreme is a new engine which will mean a new number.

In my case the engine purchase is part of the history receipts.

If the rest of your car is correct and all vin and chassis numbers tie up together, then the only issue is at some time someone has dropped a new engine in and not formerly recorded it.

As you say it was HPI clear, so sounds very much an oversight.

I would live with it personally, get my enjoyment out of it before passing it on, or if you keep it as long as i will, mine scrap it off.

Moomah · Post by **Moomah** » Wed 10 Aug, 2011 19:48

The discrepancies are :-

Incorrect sized single wheel on the rear (not worried about this)
Engine number has a plate welded over the original number and number does not match DVLA documents
BMW say blue with black interior 1.9 and now is blue with cream interior 2.8 and has been for 11 years. DVLA reflect the latter info.
Although the number match on chassis and window, BMW say stickers in engine bay suspicious, the one in the window peeling
Registration date on car is three months older than that recorded with BMW
HPI states all ok although was recorded stolen and returned in 1989
Also Trader says not stolen and no body work repairs, but previous owner says no accident in his care and no panel replacements. BMW says new inter wing panel replaced recently

You can see why we are hesitant, but appreciate all the thoughts on this, its helping on our thought processes!!!

Post by **Robert T** » Wed 10 Aug, 2011 20:28

Moomah wrote:HPI states all ok although was recorded stolen and returned in 1989

That would be quite an achievement. Another of the ones with the optional flux capacitor, perhaps?

I hope you manage to sort it out.

Cheers R.

G2JRP · Post by **G2JRP** » Wed 10 Aug, 2011 20:34

The change of interior 11 years ago that has been disclosed to dvla would not be a worry to me. You say stolen in 1989 are you sure of this date? I work for a dealer group i am aware of many instances of vehicles registered with incorrect details reg. Numbers etc. The only investigation i would try to confirm is has the car had a replacement engine

Hope you get comfortable with your zed

Moomah · Post by **Moomah** » Wed 10 Aug, 2011 20:49

oops 1999 sorry

pingu · Post by **pingu** » Thu 11 Aug, 2011 21:43

It's interesting how people are thinking that different things are the alarm bells here.

What makes you think the car is stolen? It was stolen, but it isn't now, unless you know different.

It seems to me that 11 years ago the car had an uprated engine and a different interior installed. Could it be that the stolen-recovered car was cheap and that the engine had been thrashed and interior damaged while it was stolen? Did the original owner get it back, or was there a pay-out and the car was sold by the insurance company? If it was sold by the insurance company it would have been "sold as seen" at an auction.

The alarm bell to me is the newly replaced inner wing. When was this repair done, by whom and why?

If the repair is a good one, even this is not really that serious.

Or am I missing something?

wonderloaf · Post by **wonderloaf** » Fri 12 Aug, 2011 06:14

pingu wrote:It's interesting how people are thinking that different things are the alarm bells here.

What makes you think the car is stolen? It was stolen, but it isn't now, unless you know different.

It seems to me that 11 years ago the car had an uprated engine and a different interior installed. Could it be that the stolen-recovered car was cheap and that the engine had been thrashed and interior damaged while it was stolen? Did the original owner get it back, or was there a pay-out and the car was sold by the insurance company? If it was sold by the insurance company it would have been "sold as seen" at an auction.

The alarm bell to me is the newly replaced inner wing. When was this repair done, by whom and why?

If the repair is a good one, even this is not really that serious.

Or am I missing something?

'Engine number has a plate welded over the original number and number does not match DVLA documents'

This one fact would make me suspicious...

shantybeater · Post by **shantybeater** » Fri 12 Aug, 2011 13:44

Agree with the above, besides all else knowingly attempting to cover up the original VIN with another is beond suspicious, why else would you do that ?

TitanTim · Post by **TitanTim** » Fri 12 Aug, 2011 14:31

I would do everything you can to get your money back and secure a decent straight Z3.

Any decent seller or dealer worth their salt would ensure what they are selling is legit and cosha.

Tim.

z3chuckles · Post by **z3chuckles** » Fri 12 Aug, 2011 15:24

TitanTim wrote:I would do everything you can to get your money back and secure a decent straight Z3.

Any decent seller or dealer worth their salt would ensure what they are selling is legit and cosha.

Tim.

As far as I can tell from comments dealer has done nothing wrong, not say they are perfect either but legally.

The new owner could have had inspection by as or tax etc or even checked numbers before purchasing, I always have dealer or no dealer

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri 12 Aug, 2011 16:05

Moomah wrote:The discrepancies are :-

Incorrect sized single wheel on the rear (not worried about this)
Engine number has a plate welded over the original number and number does not match DVLA documents
BMW say blue with black interior 1.9 and now is blue with cream interior 2.8 and has been for 11 years. DVLA reflect the latter info.
Although the number match on chassis and window, BMW say stickers in engine bay suspicious, the one in the window peeling
Registration date on car is three months older than that recorded with BMW
HPI states all ok although was recorded stolen and returned in 1989
Also Trader says not stolen and no body work repairs, but previous owner says no accident in his care and no panel replacements. BMW says new inter wing panel replaced recently

You can see why we are hesitant, but appreciate all the thoughts on this, its helping on our thought processes!!!

The Stolen recovered bit may be the key here, it depends on the state when it was recovered. When i was younger, I had my RS Turbo stolen. When it was found it was minus the interior, alloys, body kit and engine. it received all new parts from a car that was breaking, this included the face lift bodykit and new engine with different number of course.

It may be that your car fits the above, and the only parts available at the time (cost wise) were the 2.8 engine, makes sense really as there is no police interest in the car as proven by the HPI report.

Hope it helps to add sense to your predicament?

philip43 · Post by **philip43** » Sat 15 Oct, 2011 16:55

[quote="Moomah"]Well we have been stung.

Some of you will remember postings regarding how to find out about how many owners a car has had, the description with BMW not matching what we were driving etc. Well the engine number now confirms it.

We have a stolen car, with engine numbers changed etc etc. We are currently in contact with the trader for a refund.

We won't be able to replace her anytime soon as we have used up all our funds and £3,000 won't get us another 2.8 We paid more but that included tax and extras we added later

Would love Jonty's 2.8 that he has for sale but sadly just can't find the funds at the moment....

Hey ho....we are going to be z3 less for a while....[/quote
I think you should contact ABI. If you need any assistance let me know.

Moomah · Post by **Moomah** » Sat 15 Oct, 2011 17:08

We are off to court for this one now...still ongoing. When I have a chance I will post up the full story and hopefully it might help others when buying a car. The police are backing us all the way but the seller is being a pain in the rear.

G2JRP · Post by **G2JRP** » Sat 15 Oct, 2011 17:34

Best of luck let us know how you get on

gookah · Post by **gookah** » Sat 15 Oct, 2011 18:02

Moomah wrote:We are off to court for this one now...still ongoing. When I have a chance I will post up the full story and hopefully it might help others when buying a car. The police are backing us all the way but the seller is being a pain in the rear.

Would you like to protect other people from a similar situation with this seller,
by naming them?

G2JRP · Post by **G2JRP** » Sun 16 Oct, 2011 06:43

Best of luck let us know how you get on

TerryO · Post by **TerryO** » Mon 17 Oct, 2011 12:59

Sorry to hear of your situation. I experienced something very similar some years ago after buying a motorbike through Bike Trader (private seller). I also ended up taking the seller to the small claims court. It cost me £200 to file the various claim forms, but 18 months later I did eventually get a full refund. In my case the engine number of the bike had been ground off. The seller denied all knowledge, but did own up to the fact that he had lent the bike to a friend for 6 months and it was he who had replaced the engine! He had damaged the original engine and got a replacement from a breakers. He claimed they had removed the engine number, but why? I'd been using the bike for a couple of weeks, when I decided to remove the fairing panels to do some routine maintenance. The engine number was visible until the fairing was removed.
Stick with it and go through the small claims court procedure. It may take some time, but in my case the seller also ended up having a CCJ put on his record.

zroadster.net

Stung

Stung

Re: Stung

Re: Stung

Re: Stung

Re: Stung

Re: Stung