Spacers
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- Joined: Mon 15 Feb, 2010 20:07
- Posts: 454
- Location: Munich
Spacers
Hi All,
Now, on 3 separate occasions.. my wheel bolts at the rear of the car have "broken off" when I have 15mm TPI spacers installed on either side (total bolt length 41mm).
What exactly could be happening here?? I know I should call it a day and leave it.. but it does make a difference visually, and from a handling perspective.
- are the bolts bad quality?
- Is the force too much when hard cornering for the extra length of bolts?
- I also have bought 10x OZ Racing M12x1,5 40mm locking bolts, which have not broken off... yet
- Am i using the correct wheel bolt type? (Kegelbund or Kugelbund in German, cant remember the English..)
These are the different types:
Thanks
Now, on 3 separate occasions.. my wheel bolts at the rear of the car have "broken off" when I have 15mm TPI spacers installed on either side (total bolt length 41mm).
What exactly could be happening here?? I know I should call it a day and leave it.. but it does make a difference visually, and from a handling perspective.
- are the bolts bad quality?
- Is the force too much when hard cornering for the extra length of bolts?
- I also have bought 10x OZ Racing M12x1,5 40mm locking bolts, which have not broken off... yet
- Am i using the correct wheel bolt type? (Kegelbund or Kugelbund in German, cant remember the English..)
These are the different types:
Thanks
Last edited by Wolverine_1999 on Fri 31 Jan, 2014 12:38, edited 1 time in total.
- BladeRunner919
- Joined: Fri 17 Feb, 2012 20:18
- Posts: 2225
Re: Spacers
I assume the picture is of the standard bolt compared to the longer one? If that's the case, the longer ones are the wrong bolts for the car - the seat is a completely different angle.
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- Joined: Mon 15 Feb, 2010 20:07
- Posts: 454
- Location: Munich
Re: Spacers
No the pictures are of the bolt types, whether they are standard BMW alloys or aftermarketBladeRunner919 wrote:I assume the picture is of the standard bolt compared to the longer one? If that's the case, the longer ones are the wrong bolts for the car - the seat is a completely different angle.
- BladeRunner919
- Joined: Fri 17 Feb, 2012 20:18
- Posts: 2225
Re: Spacers
Ok. Where are they breaking? I assume it's where the thread stops at the seat? Are you using hubcentric spacers?
Re: Spacers
I have 12mm tpi spacers with the longer bolts. The type that's on the left of your pic of bolts.
I've had no problems with them on my M.
Maybe yours are being over tightened?
I've had no problems with them on my M.
Maybe yours are being over tightened?
///M Roadster - Evolve Stage 3
- Southernboy
- Joined: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 12:39
- Posts: 6437
- Location: Johannesburg
Re: Spacers
Q. Are the spacers the type which bolt to the hub and the wheel to the spacer..or the type which requires longer bolts to pass through the spacer and into the hub?
The best spacer is the one which bolts to the hub, with the wheel bolted to the spacer...Obviously, this requires the spacers to be sufficiently thick to accomodate the full length of OEM wheel bolts.
It is a fact that the greater the number of "faces" which are being held together by a single fastner, the greater the torque required to keep the faces stable.
ie. Under OEM conditions, you have 2 faces mating...the hub and the wheel rim. Fit a spacer, and you have doubled the number of faces to 4...Technically the bolt torque required to maintain the same stability as for 2 faces is 8 times normal torque.
If you choose to use spacers with longer bolts, it is advisable to have the spacer and hubs drilled with at least 3 hole triangulated accurately and the hub holes threaded internally. Then fit flush coutersunk bolts to the 3 new holes, and then you can safely use longer bolts which pass through the spacer and into the OEM bolt holes.
Fortunately, there is already 1 hole in the hub into which a scew is fitted...this holds the brake hub / disc onto the car...you will need a longer similar screw and the spacer drilled and the hole countersunk to accept the head, plus at least 2 more new holes drilled etc as described above.
This is especially important if you're the type of driver who enjoys pushing the envelope through the corners !!
Finally, if you read the manual, it gives you the correct OEM torque for wheel bolts...This is important because a bolt which is over - torqued. is under huge stretch stresses...it will be more inclined to snap than one with less torque applied. With less torque, the bolt is able to flex without breaking. As you corner, the stress on the bolt is to stretch as it approaches and passes the 90 degree position, and then that stress is relieved as it approaches and passes the 270 degree position. That happens thousands of times per minute...so the alternating stretch - relaease etc etc...will cause metal fatigue. It's the same principle as in aircraft bodies which are subjected to being internally pressurised and de-pressurised as it reaches altitude and then lands. That "breathing" effect causes metal fatigue and micro cracks begin to appear, which ultimately result in failure.
Hope this will help you to make some progress to resolve the problem...
The best spacer is the one which bolts to the hub, with the wheel bolted to the spacer...Obviously, this requires the spacers to be sufficiently thick to accomodate the full length of OEM wheel bolts.
It is a fact that the greater the number of "faces" which are being held together by a single fastner, the greater the torque required to keep the faces stable.
ie. Under OEM conditions, you have 2 faces mating...the hub and the wheel rim. Fit a spacer, and you have doubled the number of faces to 4...Technically the bolt torque required to maintain the same stability as for 2 faces is 8 times normal torque.
If you choose to use spacers with longer bolts, it is advisable to have the spacer and hubs drilled with at least 3 hole triangulated accurately and the hub holes threaded internally. Then fit flush coutersunk bolts to the 3 new holes, and then you can safely use longer bolts which pass through the spacer and into the OEM bolt holes.
Fortunately, there is already 1 hole in the hub into which a scew is fitted...this holds the brake hub / disc onto the car...you will need a longer similar screw and the spacer drilled and the hole countersunk to accept the head, plus at least 2 more new holes drilled etc as described above.
This is especially important if you're the type of driver who enjoys pushing the envelope through the corners !!
Finally, if you read the manual, it gives you the correct OEM torque for wheel bolts...This is important because a bolt which is over - torqued. is under huge stretch stresses...it will be more inclined to snap than one with less torque applied. With less torque, the bolt is able to flex without breaking. As you corner, the stress on the bolt is to stretch as it approaches and passes the 90 degree position, and then that stress is relieved as it approaches and passes the 270 degree position. That happens thousands of times per minute...so the alternating stretch - relaease etc etc...will cause metal fatigue. It's the same principle as in aircraft bodies which are subjected to being internally pressurised and de-pressurised as it reaches altitude and then lands. That "breathing" effect causes metal fatigue and micro cracks begin to appear, which ultimately result in failure.
Hope this will help you to make some progress to resolve the problem...
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- Joined: Mon 15 Feb, 2010 20:07
- Posts: 454
- Location: Munich
Re: Spacers
Answers:
- Yes I have the bolts in the left in the picture
- They are breaking at the point where the spacer joins the hub (remains are left in the wheel hub which have to be drilled out)
- They are hubcentric spacers
- They are being tightened to 120nm torque, whereas before they might have been too tight which I thought was the problem, however, one of the bolts broke again
- I sometimes go hard around corners
- I have the 2 piece hubs on my other car, which are 25mm spacers, and have had no problems (spacer fitted to hub, wheel fitted to spacer)
Another important piece of information - I need the spacers in winter for my front wheels as I have 1 series wheels, which have a much lower offset and are hitting my brake calipers With the spacers fitted, they work fine. No bolts have broken off when the spacers are fitted to the front wheels! Also, they are 16" steel wheels compared to my 18" summer alloys.
- Yes I have the bolts in the left in the picture
- They are breaking at the point where the spacer joins the hub (remains are left in the wheel hub which have to be drilled out)
- They are hubcentric spacers
- They are being tightened to 120nm torque, whereas before they might have been too tight which I thought was the problem, however, one of the bolts broke again
- I sometimes go hard around corners
- I have the 2 piece hubs on my other car, which are 25mm spacers, and have had no problems (spacer fitted to hub, wheel fitted to spacer)
Another important piece of information - I need the spacers in winter for my front wheels as I have 1 series wheels, which have a much lower offset and are hitting my brake calipers With the spacers fitted, they work fine. No bolts have broken off when the spacers are fitted to the front wheels! Also, they are 16" steel wheels compared to my 18" summer alloys.
- Southernboy
- Joined: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 12:39
- Posts: 6437
- Location: Johannesburg
Re: Spacers
I would say you've got the answers ther..."On your other car, you have spacer fitted to the hubs, and wheels to spacers - no problems"
Get the hubs off, take them to an engineering shop, let them drill and thread the hubs, and the spacers...3 holes set apart triangular - accurate - so all things balance...get the spacer holes coutersunk to fit flush screws into the hubs...
Or...get spacers which bolt to the hub and the wheel to the spacer...
Get the hubs off, take them to an engineering shop, let them drill and thread the hubs, and the spacers...3 holes set apart triangular - accurate - so all things balance...get the spacer holes coutersunk to fit flush screws into the hubs...
Or...get spacers which bolt to the hub and the wheel to the spacer...
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- Joined: Mon 15 Feb, 2010 20:07
- Posts: 454
- Location: Munich
Re: Spacers
These spacers are used by most people on the site.. why is it only happening to me?Southernboy wrote:I would say you've got the answers ther..."On your other car, you have spacer fitted to the hubs, and wheels to spacers - no problems"
Get the hubs off, take them to an engineering shop, let them drill and thread the hubs, and the spacers...3 holes set apart triangular - accurate - so all things balance...get the spacer holes coutersunk to fit flush screws into the hubs...
Or...get spacers which bolt to the hub and the wheel to the spacer...
I must be the only one who drives hard around corners..
- BladeRunner919
- Joined: Fri 17 Feb, 2012 20:18
- Posts: 2225
Re: Spacers
There's nothing stopping the spacers sitting flush with the hub is there? Even a tiny bit of corrosion that creates a small gap? As you say, loads of people use the spacers like yours without any problems.
What symptoms do you get that indicate a bolt has broken? Or is it just something you discover when taking a wheel off?
What symptoms do you get that indicate a bolt has broken? Or is it just something you discover when taking a wheel off?
- Southernboy
- Joined: Thu 07 Oct, 2010 12:39
- Posts: 6437
- Location: Johannesburg
Re: Spacers
Your cornering may have a contributory effect, however I doubt it is a prime instigator. Have you removed the wheel, and spacer, and inserted the spacer into the wheel rim on the inside to check that the spacer flange slots into the rim snugly. If it doesn't fit really snugly, you might have movement of the wheel rim which may be only 1 or 2 mm. which allows the wheel and spacer to be moved across the mating surfaces...Do a check on that and satisfy yourself that the fit is 100%. Clean everything thoroughly before checking so you have a true result.
Re: Spacers
I've been using hubcentric spacers for years and have not had any problems, I drive my cars hard. Have not heard of this happening before, are the spacers you using a good quality, as well as the bolts.
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- Joined: Mon 15 Feb, 2010 20:07
- Posts: 454
- Location: Munich
Re: Spacers
The ones I bought were these:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... TQ:GB:1123
They also supplied the longer bolts. It could be that the surfaces are not completely flush, as I remember after fitting them initially that there was a huge wobble on them! After fitting them correctly again, there was only slight movement.. but this may be what is causing the issue
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... TQ:GB:1123
They also supplied the longer bolts. It could be that the surfaces are not completely flush, as I remember after fitting them initially that there was a huge wobble on them! After fitting them correctly again, there was only slight movement.. but this may be what is causing the issue
Re: Spacers
That could be causing the problem, although I couldn't say for sure. I bought mine from burger tuning in the USA and they fit perfectly, you actually battle to remove them when you need to, they also supplied the longer bolts.Wolverine_1999 wrote:The ones I bought were these:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... TQ:GB:1123
They also supplied the longer bolts. It could be that the surfaces are not completely flush, as I remember after fitting them initially that there was a huge wobble on them! After fitting them correctly again, there was only slight movement.. but this may be what is causing the issue
- BladeRunner919
- Joined: Fri 17 Feb, 2012 20:18
- Posts: 2225
Re: Spacers
There shouldn't be any movement at all. I'd say you've found the problem.Wolverine_1999 wrote:The ones I bought were these:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... TQ:GB:1123
They also supplied the longer bolts. It could be that the surfaces are not completely flush, as I remember after fitting them initially that there was a huge wobble on them! After fitting them correctly again, there was only slight movement.. but this may be what is causing the issue
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- Joined: Mon 15 Feb, 2010 20:07
- Posts: 454
- Location: Munich
Re: Spacers
Thanks for everyone replies! Time to flush those babies before the next fitting..
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- Joined: Mon 15 Feb, 2010 20:07
- Posts: 454
- Location: Munich
Re: Spacers
Well, after ordering a new set of 15mm spacers, as the TPI are not road legal on the continent, I noticed that the new ones look considerably "wider".
Turns out, the idiots at Rochford sent me 12mm spacers instead of 15mm, but with 41mm bolts. 3mm of my bolts were always "crushed" into the hub.. unbelievable.
Turns out, the idiots at Rochford sent me 12mm spacers instead of 15mm, but with 41mm bolts. 3mm of my bolts were always "crushed" into the hub.. unbelievable.
Re: Spacers
Intresting read as I've just ordered a set of 20mm Hub centric's for mine. Pleased you've sorted the problem.