Let the welding begin...ALL FINISHED NOW

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Deano1712
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Let the welding begin...ALL FINISHED NOW

Post by Deano1712 »

I haven't posted for while - busy with new job - and here's my car:

Image
The car is off the road for the winter now till April and I have a few jobs to do to bring it up to the condition I want:

Suspension overhaul including blast and powder coat all major suspension parts. New bushes, fasteners throughout.
Boot floor strengthened - big welding job.
Front end respray. That will be done in the spring professionally.
Sort out creaking clutch and accelerator pedals.
If the budget stretches, wheel refurb and new speakers and sub install too.

I will post the occasional update but dont hold your breath I have 6 months to do the work! Wish me luck.
Last edited by Deano1712 on Sat 25 Apr, 2009 13:32, edited 1 time in total.
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topfuelking
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Post by topfuelking »

go deano 8-)
THANKS MARC
looking for a carp fishing hoilday we can help http://www.carpfishingmayenne.com

ImageSYMPTOMS OF A BOOST JUNKY

1. You get excited when it's cold outside.
2. You fill up every three days.
3. The size of your grin is directly proportional to the amount of boost you’re on.
///M_aniac
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Post by ///M_aniac »

Best of luck with the work, Deano.

Do you have any details you could share about the boot floor strengthening please?

Thanks

Conor
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Gazza
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Post by Gazza »

Hi Mate, if the new job has kept you that busy I hope you'll have enough time for the Zed :wink: , sounds like a nice Winter project.
Gazza

"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you take the wall with you"

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Deano1712
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Post by Deano1712 »

///M_aniac wrote:Best of luck with the work, Deano. Do you have any details you could share about the boot floor strengthening please?
Hi Conor. The job entails removing a strip of steel in the boot floor to expose the inside of the cross member. Extra steel will be welded into the base of the cross member and closed off again with thicker steel on top. All parts will be seam welded. Underneath the hanging bracket will be strengthened. I was going to use a twin diff mount but have decided it will be fine with the standard diff cover, if the boot structure is strong.
///garythefish wrote:Hi Mate, if the new job has kept you that busy I hope you'll have enough time for the Zed , sounds like a nice Winter project.
Hi fella. I have a bit more time now and its quite relaxing pottering about in the garage. I just need to stick at it when the weather is cold. I hear a cold snap is coming soon :|
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Post by Guest »

Is this a Randy Forbes kit?
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Deano1712
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Post by Deano1712 »

siwilson wrote:Is this a Randy Forbes kit?
No but its a similar approach. Spending $500 on that kit is daft when one can buy the sheet steel for £10-£20. The job is much easier to do retaining the single mount, whereas the RF kit needs a twin eared cover. I did look into getting the twin eared Rouge cover but it was £350 plus import duty. I wouldn't use the standard E36 twin eared cover since it has no cooling fins. I think you also run into exhaust clearance problems with the twin cover.
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Post by aj2007 »

Hi Deano
Sounds very interesting, are you going to make the rear suspension adjustable whilst the rear suspension is removed like in thread below?
If it looks like the pictures of the finished rear suspension down this link it will be the Mutz Nutz!

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showth ... highlight=

Please keep us posted, very interested in final results :)

Ade
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Deano1712
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Post by Deano1712 »

Hi Ade. I had not thought of that but its a good time to do it so will look into that thanks.

I have been taking the car to bits today and had a good look at the damage.
A straight edge against the top of the cross member shows it is pulled down 3-4mm
Image
There are a couple of failed spot welds shown here which is the reason I decided to start this job. It has got worse during the course of this year.
Image
After stripping away the seam sealer the problem looks worse with a further 4 broken welds. The whole LHS of the crossmember seems to have lost most of its security. I wonder how many Z3's are runnig around with problems in this area hidden by the seam sealer!
Image
Underneath there is evidence of further problems with more spots welds. The hanger bracket also has spot welds in a sorry state.
Image

Oh dear! It looks like I am going to be busy.
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Post by aj2007 »

Mmm very interesting you have me worried now! There was a recall on Z3M Roadsters by BMW to check out failing spot welds in the boot area, I have a letter from BMW saying this was checked on my car dated July 2003.

However I was cleaning out the boot area this week and noticed at least 4 spot welds which have pulled away and gone a little rusty. They are the three going left to right near the rubber grommet on your pictures, It looked to me like these were holding an exhaust support bracket although I haven't had a closer look yet. Looks like I am going to have to remove some seam sealer :shock:

Thanks for the heads up

Ade
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Post by Guest »

Deano1712 wrote:
siwilson wrote:Is this a Randy Forbes kit?
No but its a similar approach. Spending $500 on that kit is daft when one can buy the sheet steel for £10-£20. The job is much easier to do retaining the single mount, whereas the RF kit needs a twin eared cover. I did look into getting the twin eared Rouge cover but it was £350 plus import duty. I wouldn't use the standard E36 twin eared cover since it has no cooling fins. I think you also run into exhaust clearance problems with the twin cover.
Fair enough. The Forbes kit isn't cheap, but is laser cut for a perfect fit and alignment. Having said that, if you don't plan on the dual-ear upgrade then a lot of the work that went into the kit will be less beneficial.

There is as school of thought that says one of the reasons for the problems is the single ear mounting. The stress loadin from the diff being in one locaton as opposed to spread across two. I have done quite a bit of reading on this through fear I may have the same problem one day. As a preventative measure I installed the Ireland subframe bushes to stop the subframe moving around as much as this movement contributes to the problem.

You're correct on the exhaust clearance issues, the Forbes kit doesn't work with stock silencers or some aftermarket ones.

For those that are worried about this issue. It is worth noting that while far from unique, the issue is far from common. A lot of people will experiance this, but many many more will not.

Keep us posted!

Si.
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Deano1712
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Post by Deano1712 »

siwilson wrote:There is as school of thought that says one of the reasons for the problems is the single ear mounting. The stress loading from the diff being in one locaton as opposed to spread across two.
A twin mount will drop the bending moment down a bit in the cross member. Im planning to do some stress calcs to see exactly what is the cause and the best cure. Im pretty sure its torque reaction from the diff, rather than cornering or squat conditions thats raises the highest stresses. Im also quite sure its simply the lack of weld to the boot floor and the high shear stress in the few spot welds that are there. Thats why I intend to seam weld the top back on.
Considering that my car has done 65k miles to get to this state I dont think it needs much of an improvement in strength to avoid re-occurrence. As you say some cars dont suffer from this at all. If I make the cross member 50% stronger I think that will suffice and wont add much weight either.
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Post by pingu »

Image

Think about the torque that is trying to make this car do a wheely.

The rear of the car is being pulled down by the one-eared lug.

There's a lot of force there. It's no wonder the floor is getting distorted :shock: .
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Post by TitanTim »

This is an interesting thread and at the same time a little worrying :shock:

Is this a problem specific to the M model? or can it happen to all Zeds?

Tim.
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Post by skinny »

TitanTim wrote:This is an interesting thread and at the same time a little worrying :shock:

Is this a problem specific to the M model? or can it happen to all Zeds?

Tim.
All Zed's, maybe i should check mine :roll:
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Post by topfuelking »

THANKS MARC
looking for a carp fishing hoilday we can help http://www.carpfishingmayenne.com

ImageSYMPTOMS OF A BOOST JUNKY

1. You get excited when it's cold outside.
2. You fill up every three days.
3. The size of your grin is directly proportional to the amount of boost you’re on.
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Post by topfuelking »

THANKS MARC
looking for a carp fishing hoilday we can help http://www.carpfishingmayenne.com

ImageSYMPTOMS OF A BOOST JUNKY

1. You get excited when it's cold outside.
2. You fill up every three days.
3. The size of your grin is directly proportional to the amount of boost you’re on.
///M_aniac
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Post by ///M_aniac »

Is anyone on here a member of this forum? Does anyone know if they compiled evidence that could be produced at dealership if the repair was necessary?
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Post by Guest »

///M_aniac wrote:
Is anyone on here a member of this forum? Does anyone know if they compiled evidence that could be produced at dealership if the repair was necessary?
I am and yes, they did. There are also alot more cases documented on Bimmerfest. Robin on here had the repair done by BMW at their expense. The whole episode is docuemented on this site.
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Post by ///M_aniac »

BMW Z3, the only way to build a true roadster

Image - The most powerful letter in the world.
Cloz wrote:There is something that will never change is my love for Z3
smartypants wrote:Conor?

With an M??


The World's gone mad :D
smartypants wrote:The Z3 rear is a great thing to behold ;)
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Post by Deano1712 »

I have been investigating the cause of the boot floor problems with my car and here's my view on it all...

The highest load on the rear diff mount occurs under high tractive loads when accelerating hard in first gear. The loads are proportional to the maximum acceleration the car can see. It would be good to know the peak measured acceleration at launch - anyone know? My calcuations assume the peak is around 0.57g. There is a torque reaction from the wheels which pulls down on the rear lug, and a further smaller downward force from the suspension geometry. Total downward load is ~550kg.

The cross member sees around 155MPa stress with this load. This is a little on the high side although not high enough to do immediate damage. Its in the fatigue zone and hence high enough to start forming cracks if the car is subject to repeated high g launches. If you are the sort of driver to regularly screech the tyres from the lights you therefore may be doing damage.

Worse still is the spot welds between the boot floor and the cross member. My car has a total of 30 spot welds. It really needs 2 or 3 times this many and the welds are definately a big weakness.

On my car I doubled up the number of welds in the centre section 2 years ago and there were no further problems. Over this period of time the welds to the LHS popped and cracks started to progress down into the cross member. This is only visible after cutting a strip of the boot floor out!

Image
Image

The crack is circled here, and is ground out ready for welding.

My advice to fellow Z3 owners is that if you have no damage showing to your boot floor AND you dont drive the car too hard from off the mark you have no cause to worry. If you have any sign of damage to welds at the top of the cross member that have not progressed too far, a good fix is to drill the welds out and flood weld. Drill further holes to double up on the total number of welds. This can all be done within the boot and would be a cheap, quick and effective fix. If you want to go the whole hog and strengthen up the cross member (as I have now done) its a bigger job but will eliminate the problem completely.
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Deano1712
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Post by Deano1712 »

A few pics to show the repair...

Cut out section of boot floor to expose inside of cross member
Image

Optional step here removing the hanger bracket. There is nothing wrong with the old bracket but I fancied new metal. Interestingly the new bracket is made from slightly thicker material.
Image

Welded a 2mm thick steel strip to the bottom of the cross member, seam welded the joint to the boot floor, and welded plates at the sides to help spread loads.
Image

Drilled holes through front and back of the cross member.
Image

Close off top of cross member with an inverted channel section fabricated from angle and strip 1.5mm thick. Channel is stitch welded at top and welded through all the holes underneath on previous photo. Small channel is welded at end to connect to plates at the side into the spreader plate.
Image

Final bit is welding new hanger bracket on.
Image

The end result is a cross member twice as strong as standard and an end to any chance of further problems. Easy!! :wink:
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Post by stu »

Cool, now you've just got to put it back together Deano!

How many man hours so far?
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Deano1712
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Post by Deano1712 »

About 20 hours so far Stu. It will take longer to put it together since everything is getting a full refurb. There is also the spraying too. I need to find paint to match the boot floor and underneath. Any ideas? Does BMW sell that paint?
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Post by aj2007 »

Hi Deano

Looking good, you have been busy, i'm hoping for a 'how to' remove all the bits underneath before you can even begin the cutting and welding part. Looks very neat and considerably stronger than stock :bow

I asked the same question re boot and under bonnet paint here:

http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18674

yet to find out if there is a BMW paint code for it. I bet you will be able to eat your dinner off the rear suspension when it's done :)

Ade
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Post by stu »

Mark, How's the work going?
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Post by Deano1712 »

stu wrote:Mark, How's the work going?
I havnt done much to it recently. Decorating and women have got in the way.

I got the S54 suspension I bought last week and it looks ace - like new. I have a long list of parts to come from BMW totaling £300. Yesterday I had some paint mixed to match the boot floor so Im all set to get on with the painting over the Christmas break. Getting the underside of the car clean and ready for paint is difficult. If I could start over I would have had the underside steam cleaned before I started. Im really struggling to get the rear arch liners out too. I have the screws out but they wont come free. I may end up having to cut them out and buy some new ones to refit.

Im considering a full respray after the suspension is all done. I was going to have the bonnet and bumper sprayed but most panels have defects and I want to be happy with it. Anyone have any suggestions for a good spray shop in the north and how much wonger it will take?
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Post by Guest »

Deano,

Stirling effort so far. My hat is off to you sir!

While you are in there and have it all apart, maybe consoder upgrading the ant-role bar mounts or even and adjustable rear camber / caster kit. H&R ARBs are a really nice upgrade. I would have one, but the stock mounts are prone to submission under the load of a stiffer bar. When my boot floor dies I will do this upgrade.

Lastly, while that subframe is out, fit Ireland bushes, they tighten up the rear end a trest!
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Post by stu »

If you want a top job, Specialist Cars of Malton have just done a 996 GT2 from Silver to White on a local car and the owner is delighted!
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Post by offyourmarks »

hi deano

great post mate - after reading yours i stripped mine down to check. fortunately all is good. then its only done 12k and a lady owner so its hardly been tested :roll: I'm sure i will put it to test come the good weather.

on the paint front then we (my business) recommend one company called prospray in rixton near warrington. Detailing cars day in day out, i have seen many many paint jobs done by many reputable painters. most are overpriced and substandard imho.

i can definately recommend them - I have absolutely financial no connection with them either. they just turn out very high standards of work, never let me down either.

hth matt
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Post by Deano1712 »

siwilson wrote:Deano,

Stirling effort so far. My hat is off to you sir!

While you are in there and have it all apart, maybe consoder upgrading the ant-role bar mounts or even and adjustable rear camber / caster kit. H&R ARBs are a really nice upgrade. I would have one, but the stock mounts are prone to submission under the load of a stiffer bar. When my boot floor dies I will do this upgrade.

Lastly, while that subframe is out, fit Ireland bushes, they tighten up the rear end a trest!
I looked into fitting adjustable rear camber/caster but Im not planning to run lowered so cant see a big advantange. The ARB mounts do look very flimsy so I will look at doing an upgrade there, thanks for the prompt. Lastly I already have the IE bushes fitted. Im going to get a poly bush made for the rear diff mount too since it concerns me that I have been running solid front bushes and the soft rear bush is still allowing the subframe to pitch around.
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Post by Guest »

Deano1712 wrote:Im going to get a poly bush made for the rear diff mount too since it concerns me that I have been running solid front bushes and the soft rear bush is still allowing the subframe to pitch around.
You may get away with this since you have uprated the boot floor, but the general concensus seems to be that this is a bad idea. It's the movement of the diff at that mount that seems to do the damage to the 'ear' and the boot floor. A solid bush will not absorb any of the movement and will transfer it all to the ear and the boot floor. IMO a solid bush may make matters worse.
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Post by R J 916 »

I,m impressed with the work youve done so farMark,I did,nt know you could weld as good as that, I always thought you where a gynaecologist?anyway it looks spot on. Russ
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Post by Deano1712 »

Painting is complete now thankfully. After lots of prep, a coat of etch primer, seam sealer, stone chip and top coat its all ready to start re-assembly.

Image
Image
Image

The job moves onto a more satisying phase now. Im off to the dealers tomorrow to order a long list of new parts and can start to build it up over the next few weeks.

Cheers,
Mark
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Post by Ian_C »

Looking good Mark. Will you get it all finished before Spokey's cruise on 7 Feb?
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Post by Gazza »

Excellent job :bow
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Post by Deano1712 »

myredzed wrote:Looking good Mark. Will you get it all finished before Spokey's cruise on 7 Feb?
Im planning to get the car on the road in April so I will miss the cruise Ian. I will probably arrange a cruise myself in May this year.
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Post by offyourmarks »

myredzed wrote:Looking good Mark. Will you get it all finished before Spokey's cruise on 7 Feb?
cruise - sounds good - do you have any more info on this please. Sorry to hijack.

Nice work btw mark - very impressive indeed!

Matt
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Post by Ian_C »

offyourmarks wrote:
myredzed wrote:Looking good Mark. Will you get it all finished before Spokey's cruise on 7 Feb?
cruise - sounds good - do you have any more info on this please. Sorry to hijack.

Nice work btw mark - very impressive indeed!

Matt
Details here: http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19050
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Post by Deano1712 »

At last Im ready to build the rear suspension back up, and hope to have it running this weekend. The engine hasn't run for 3 months now so I hope that will fire up ok.

I have spent ages preparing the parts to refit. Most have been shot blasted and re-painted:
Image
The brake back plates need sorting out but I cant get them off until the subframe is back in.

I have new S54 suspension bought off e bay and looking good:
Image

And finally loads of new parts from the dealer. All new bolts, bushes, fuel tank straps, brake hoses, spring pads, handbrake cables etc etc. The idea is to have the underside looking like new, and since I dont run the car in the winter it should stay that way.
Image

More to follow later...
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Post by aj2007 »

Hi Mark, looking good, wow look at all those goodies it's like Christmas has come early or late :shock:

Will look forward to having a look at the finished article up at Leeds in April :lol:

Regards

Ade
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Post by muppet »

Quite a jigsaw you have there, sure it will be fantastic :zmurf:
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Post by Deano1712 »

The boot floor job is all done now with the rear end built up and the car running again. Most of the rear suspension is now new or refurbished so Im well happy with it all. The engine fired up instantly after 4 months.

The alternative approach for a failing boot floor is to phone BMW and get the job done for free. Thats not quite so much fun as my route :?

Image

Image

Image

Image

The next job is the front suspension. Im not sure yet whether to do a full strip and refurb as I have on the rear, or to just change the struts. Working under the car in a narrow garage is getting tiresome!
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Post by Ian_C »

That's looking great Mark, well done. Don't drive it in the wet though - you don't want to get the underside dirty now :wink: :lol:
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Post by Deano1712 »

offyourmarks wrote:hi deano

on the paint front then we (my business) recommend one company called prospray in rixton near warrington. Detailing cars day in day out, i have seen many many paint jobs done by many reputable painters. most are overpriced and substandard imho.

i can definately recommend them - I have absolutely financial no connection with them either. they just turn out very high standards of work, never let me down either.

hth matt
I have a quote from Prospray for £1050 plus Vat for respay covering bonnet, bumper, drivers door, both sills, and drivers mirror base. Does this seem reasonable? Its more than I expected but if its the going rate I may as well just go for it. The car is on the road on 1st April and I want the respray done before the rolling road day later in the month.
Z3M with a few mods...and a little bit more power
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offyourmarks
Joined: Sun 28 Oct, 2007 19:46
Posts: 422

  M roadster S52
Location: Cheshire
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Post by offyourmarks »

seems fair enough really - the bonnet is a killer

it is a lot to spend deano i completely agree, but i would be happy to pay that myself as i am very, wery particular when it comes to paint and they have never failed me yet. there's nothing worse than a crap paint job imho and seeing how you have gone to the trouble of getting the underside spot on then its fitting to get the upside spot on too :)

let me know when its going in - i live in glazebrook village very near to prospray so i'll call in and have a look 8-)

matt
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Deano1712
Z Register organiser
Joined: Sat 05 Aug, 2006 12:56
Posts: 1396

  M roadster S50
Location: Leeds

Post by Deano1712 »

Im taking the car in on 9th April Matt.

I just have to get the front suspension built up now and the respray complete and the car should be spot on. Roll on the good weather mixed with a lil bit of M Power 8-) .
Z3M with a few mods...and a little bit more power
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Deano1712
Z Register organiser
Joined: Sat 05 Aug, 2006 12:56
Posts: 1396

  M roadster S50
Location: Leeds

Post by Deano1712 »

I got the car back from the spray shop yesterday and am very happy with the results. There are a few minor jobs to do but its now back on the road and its time for driving the car now, rather than working (and spending) on it.

The new suspension and other changes have made the ride and handling better and there seems to be more grip than I remember.

A few pics from my phone:

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Image
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Z3M with a few mods...and a little bit more power
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Ian_C
Joined: Sun 10 Dec, 2006 20:10
Posts: 2415

  Z3 roadster 2.8
Location: Lytham St Annes

Post by Ian_C »

Looks good as new now Mark. Good effort! :wink:
Current...1998 ///M Coupe
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Previously...1997 Z3 2.8
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whiteminks
Joined: Tue 26 Sep, 2006 09:58
Posts: 2768

  M roadster S54
Location: Lincoln

Post by whiteminks »

Wow that looks fantastic Mark. I can just see you grimacing on it's next cruise as the stones fly. :wink:
big cheesy wrote:'I nearly cacked my trolleys till I quickly tuned in'. Yorkshire Cruise 2008.
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