How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

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janijoeli
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How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by janijoeli »

First of all, hi to everybody! I'm new to the forum and new to Z3M (and to any BMW for that matter), so I apologise if my questions are stupid or irrelevant, or already answered somewhere else on the forum.

I already tried to find some information about this, but maybe I am not using the right search terms, or there really is nothing about this on the forum yet. Didn't find anything relevant by random googling either.

I am about to buy a Cat-D Z3M Roadster, however there is very little history available, and the engine has possibly been replaced.

- How can I identify if the engine is the original S50B32 that came with the car, or if it would be a higher mileage salvage unit from another Z3M, or possibly M3?
- How can I tell the difference between Z3M and M3 engines, and 3.0 and 3.2 litre M3 engines?
- Where are the engine serial numbers on each engine?
- Is peeling valve cover paint common on S50 engines, or is this a sign of a high-mileage engine? Any other tell-tales that could help me in knowing the history of the engine?

A bit of background:
Judging by the overall condition of the car and how it drives I believe the low(ish) mileage to be genuine, and price seems about right for Cat D. However, as I already mentioned, car has very little history. I did some investigation and now know it was MOTd in March 2006 and written off (Category D) in July 2006. There are a couple of receipts for bits and bobs for the front of the car dated end of 2010, and after repairs it was MOTd in Spring 2011.

Between the 2006 and 2011 MOTs there is only a thousand mile difference in mileage, which suggests that the car has been sitting from when it was written off until it was finally fixed in 2010/2011. If it would have been just light frontal damage it would have surely been back on the road much earlier. This is why I strongly believe that the engine was damaged in the crash, and car now has a different engine.

The possibly-replaced engine pulls strongly, and there is no smoke when accelerating, lifting off etc, so I don't really know what else I could check to verify the engine's mileage. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks in advance!

Cheers,
Jani
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Southernboy
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by Southernboy »

The VIN number should be on the registration docs...you can enter the last 7 digits on the http://www.realoem website...it'll tell you what year and which model the car is and what engine it is meant to have fitted.... :wink:
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Jonco
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by Jonco »

Further to Southernboy's response - you can also try this http://www.bmwarchiv.de/vin/bmw-vin-decoder.html. - it's in the knowledgebase somewhere but I can't spot it at the moment. The VIN number should be on a tag on the dash near the windscreen and again under bonnet.

The engine ID should be on side of the block near to the oil sump.

If you can get INPA hooked up to the diagnostics point then you can interrogate ECU for installation data. If you look up INPA in knowledge base there are some examples of what you can expect to view.

I'm sure somebody wiil be along soon to answer your other questions.

Good luck
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janijoeli
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by janijoeli »

Thanks for your help chaps! Unfortunately I don't have the car yet as seller is taking it to MOT first, and is also waiting for new plates to arrive as he keeps his private plates. I should have written the VIN down when I went to see the car... Anyway, I believe VIN would only tell me the model of the engine, but not the serial number?
So the model on Z3M should be S50B32, but I would just need to make sure that it hasn't been replaced with a B30, or a B32 with a lot more miles on it than the rest of the car.

B30 vs. B32 verification:
I googled a bit more, the only external difference between S50B30 and S50B32 I could find is the sump. From left to right: M50/S52, S50B30, S50B32/S54.
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Source:
http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/104329- ... ntry989501

Thus if the engine has a sump with level sensor and a bolted strainer plate, I suppose it is most likely a B32. Are there any other external differences? Is the engine model written on the side of the block as well, or just serial number? And if there is a model number, is it understandable (i.e. containing the engine model in human readable form) or just some non-descriptive BMW part number? I tried to find a photo of the numbers on either b30 or b32 blocks but couldn't find anything.

Original engine vs. replacement engine:
If I understood correctly, I could get the engine S/N from ECU using INPA and compare it to the one on block? Unless the number has been changed in ECU when the engine has been changed, or unless the whole ECU has been replaced (in which case the VINs on ECU and the rest of the car wouldn't necessarily match).

INPA looks like an awesome tool, many thanks for the tip! It opened a whole new world to me. I spent several hours last night reading about different protocols, software and dongles. :) Unfortunately I wouldn't get INPA setup before I would need to make a decision on the car, but if I end up buying it, I will definitely get a dongle too.

I will try to get the VIN and hopefully engine number from the seller before going to collect the car.
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Jonco
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by Jonco »

Hi,

I confess that I do not know anything about Cat D but on an original V5c registration document the engine number is listed - maybe you can do a bit of research, if you haven't already, on what information is transferred to new documentation.

You will need certain information for Insurance and that will include modifications question - so you need to know. Insurance Company database should also have any previous claim/writeoff info.

If you are after INPA then http://www.BMTechnic.co.uk Diagnostics kit is one used by many people and it includes loads of additional software. Does eat up a lot of memory on the laptop but you don't have to load it all. My kit cost £45 last year - I think prices are still similar - very quickly pays for itself.

Mod edit - link correction - Gazza - Thanks Gazza - sorry missed that!
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janijoeli
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by janijoeli »

Excellent tips, thanks Jonco! I ordered the BM Technic kit, hopefully it arrives soon and I have time to install the software before I go pick up the car. Maybe I'll be able to hook it up and compare the engine number on docs, chassis and ecu, check the error codes etc before it's too late.

Do you know where to acquire information from the insurance company database? I would have thought it is not public information. It'd be great if it is, and they would have info about the reasons why the car was Cat-D'd twice and not just when. At least I would know for sure if the engine needed replacing.
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Jonco
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by Jonco »

janijoeli wrote:...........Do you know where to acquire information from the insurance company database? I would have thought it is not public information. It'd be great if it is, and they would have info about the reasons why the car was Cat-D'd twice and not just when. ...
Will need some help off others on here to fully answer. I was fortunate when I bought mine that I knew a guy in a dealership so he did a trade HPI check for me. He doesn't work for them anymore so I can't ask him. You can do a private HPI enquiry but it will cost you ~£20.00 and I am not sure whether you get the full info. RAC also do similar. Google hpi.co.uk and you should get a few links (don't jump in to the from £3.00 a search trap - you have to buy a bundle to qualify).
Another route is to go into an insurance broker and ask them for quotes to insure the vehicle - explain background and you should be able to glean something of use when they look it up. :wink:

Good Luck

Edit: Note: When you connect diagnostics it will drain battery very quickly - you will either need engine running or to connect car to a charger.
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aceman
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by aceman »

The easiest way to distinguish between a S50B30 and S50B32 is that a B30 only has a single vanos whereas the B32 has a double vanos plus the rocker covers are different. I seriously doubt it would have had a B30 fitted as the wiring and ECU are different for each varient.
Aceman

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janijoeli
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by janijoeli »

Thanks again for good advice chaps!

Cheers Aceman, I'm pretty confident it is a B32 then, just need to find out if it is not the original engine.

I got the BM Technic kit. Arrived in a day! Unfortunately some parts of the bundled software come installed on a virtual machine and they would require installation of VMPlayer, and as a non-Windows user I tried to install the software on a virtual machine... Apparently VM inside a VM isn't allowed. :) Oh well, maybe a new try on native Windows soon. At least I was able to install INPA, which I believe should give me enough information about the motor.

Jonco, how quickly do the diagnostics drain the battery? Just thinking if I would have time to at least check the VIN and engine numbers and error codes without battery charger. Shouldn't take longer than a couple of minutes, if everything goes smoothly...

Will also try to fish out some information from some insurance companies tomorrow as you suggested.

I did an HPI check (https://www.vehiclecheck.co.uk/) before I even went to see the car. It was Cat-D in 2005 and also 2006. Judging from the areas that had been repaired, and from the available receipts, the first hit in 2005 was to the offside door and a bit to the front quarter, and the second in 2006 was a frontal collision. IMHO car had been repaired pretty well, though I've seen enough accident-repaired cars to be able to see which areas had been repaired, and to guesstimate the level of damage.

I should be able to go and see the car this weekend. Wish me luck! :)
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Jonco
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by Jonco »

janijoeli wrote:....

Jonco, how quickly do the diagnostics drain the battery? Just thinking if I would have time to at least check the VIN and engine numbers and error codes without battery charger. Shouldn't take longer than a couple of minutes, if everything goes smoothly...
You will be ok for that but any extended session will drain it. If you run the engine, which I presume you will, there will not be a problem. As previously suggested if you look at `INPA How to' in the knowledge base there are some examples of the engine functions you could look up at the same time. Also you can look at error codes. The example in the KB is for an M44. If you have a look on the M3cutters forum, which is where BMTechnics put their `help stuff', you may find some other examples.

Good Luck
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janijoeli
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by janijoeli »

Thanks Jonco!

Re. INPA motor readings, do you know which one of the multiple numbers is the engine serial number?
I am guessing "production number", but no idea what "supplier number", "officialnumber" or "assembly number" mean either... So many numbers! :D

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I talked with the seller. We had agreed the car is MOT'd before we finalise the sale. He took the car to garage, and his garage had to fix the airbag fault before it would pass MOT. Apparently both seat belt pre-tensioners needed replacing, which makes me even more convinced that the frontal collision had been severe enough to damage the original engine... When I inspected the car, I didn't see any wrinkles or weldings on the structural bits in the front though, so either they have been well repaired (i.e. completely replaced), or they were not damaged in the crash.

Nevertheless, I'm starting to think the car is not necessarily worth the price we agreed on... Let's see. The problem is, when I go see the car again, I KNOW all common sense will be thrown out of the window and I just want him to shut up and take my money. :head: :D
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by Robert T »

I don't think INPA is going to be able to tell you if an engine has been changed unless the ECU was also changed along with the engine.

All of the information you can see comes from the cars engine management module - I am pretty sure that any information on what engine is being serviced by the ECU will be coded into the ECU and stored in some kind of ROM (probably an EEPROM) rather than reading some kind of "signature" from the engine. The part numbers listed are the part numbers for any of the modules are the part numbers of the control units. You can check what cars that particular ECU was fitted to, but it doesn't help if they shared the same ECU.

The only other interesting bit of info is the VIN. If the VIN matches the cars VIN, then the likelihood its that it is the original ECU - if it doesn't then it is likely to be that of the donor car. Of course if an engine transplant was carried out by someone with a bit more knowledge (or by a BMW dealer), then they may have been able to overwrite the VIN. You can check the VIN in a few places, including the instrument cluster, and you can even do this on later cars through the odometer self-test mode without having to plug into the diagnostic port.

Cheers R.
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janijoeli
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by janijoeli »

I was hoping one of those numbers would be the engine serial number, stored on the ECU before the car left the factory, like VIN. Thus comparing VIN and engine serial number between ECU and car&engine would tell me:

[geek approach]

Code: Select all

N = non-matching numbers
Y = matching numbers

VIN  ESN  Probable Cause
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 N    N   ECU changed (may or may not be original engine)
 N    Y   Engine and ECU changed together
 Y    N   Engine changed
 Y    Y   Original ECU and engine (or both possibly changed and ECU re-programmed)
[/geek approach]

But of course if engine serial number is not stored on ECU, the only check I could do is for the VIN.
Last edited by janijoeli on Mon 08 Jul, 2013 19:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Robert T
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by Robert T »

Ah, I'm with you - you wanted to know the original engine serial number so that you could check it against what is physically written on the engine. With you now! Unfortunately I don't know the answer to that one. :lol:

Cheers R.

PS I'm a geek too, but that is more geeky than me. :D
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janijoeli
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by janijoeli »

Yep that's what I'm after. If one of the numbers stored in ECU would be engine serial and match the serial on block, and VIN would also match, it still wouldn't be 100% guaranteed for the engine to be original, but there'd at least be a greater chance.

Geeky approach is nice. Gives me all possible permutations for given variables, and then I just need to figure out what each permutation could possibly mean. :)
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Robert T
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by Robert T »

janijoeli wrote:Geeky approach is nice. Gives me all possible permutations for given variables, and then I just need to figure out what each permutation could possibly mean. :)
That's getting a bit mathematical geeky now - might have to get Dara O'Briain involved. :lol:

Just had to look up how to spell O'Briain - I can't believe he is only a year older than me - I look so much younger than he does! :D

Cheers R.
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by gookah »

Robert T wrote:
janijoeli wrote:
Just had to look up how to spell O'Briain - I can't believe he is only a year older than me - I look so much younger than he does! :D

Cheers R.

Is he really 61? :D
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janijoeli
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by janijoeli »

Must be driving the Z3s that keeps people young. :D

Haha, seen that chap somewhere but never knew his name... Dara's involvement might not just help with the complex mathematic equations involved in thorough Cat-D Z3M pre-purchase procedures, but he might also keep us entertained during the process. :D
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Brian H
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by Brian H »

If you go to your BMW dealer and request a Vehicle Specification Enquiry for the car you are looking for then it will tell you the engine number when purchased. I have a copy of it for my car that the previous owner had printed off at the dealer.
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janijoeli
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by janijoeli »

I am a (semi-)happy M Roadster owner now! :drive

Semi-happy, because I hit a queue on my way home, and car started overheating... :shock: After a couple of FFSs, manual stop-start and finding a bus stop I had a chance to look under the hood. Viscous fan clutch seems to be faulty, it doesn't engage properly and fan just doesn't spin fast enough to cool the engine. Already ordered a replacement via eBay. Also one of the fan blades had broken off, so ordered new blades as well. £55 in total, so no need to rob the bank (yet)...

Also heater motor blows either at full speed or not at all. Always something missed on the test drive... Seems to be a common problem, caused by a dirty or faulty resistor. Will try cleaning it, and replacing if cleaning doesn't help. Cheapest on ebay is around £40, surely these can be found cheaper from somewhere??

There are a couple more things that need doing, and a couple I want to do... Sounds like a separate project thread to me. :D

Thanks everyone for your help, highly appreciated!!
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swamper
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by swamper »

welcome to the club ... :wink:
the badness makes me do it...!

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janijoeli
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Re: How to identify S50 engines - Z3M vs M3 3.0 vs M3 3.2

Post by janijoeli »

Thanks swamper!
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