Car won't start - won't even crank / turn over

[janijoeli]

After not using my car for a week or so, now it suddenly doesn't start at all. All electrics, including dashboard lights, work as expected when turning the key, but when trying to start, nothing. No dimming lights, no cranking, not even a click.

So far I've:
- Checked all fuses (which were okay)
- Read error codes with BMTechnic diagnostics (of which there were none)
- Tried cleaning the ignition barrel with plenty of electronics cleaning spray and pressurised air
- Tried removing and re-connecting the connector next to fuse box
- Tried jump starting as the battery was only 12.06V (voltage was way over 13 when connected directly via the under bonnet terminals to another idling car).

Alas, none of the above made any difference.

Any ideas?

[pingu]

Think simple to start with.

Is there voltage all the way to the starter?

Are you sure that you checked ALL the fuses? Do you have a wiring diagram? What year is your car and I will post a link?

[pingu]

I've just had a look at the wiring diagram and it is too complicated to put into words, but if you can supply a feed to the small (2.5 SWGE) wire AND to the large (25 RT) wire, you will bypass the EWS. If the starter spins, your EWS could be kapput. Look at the wiring diagrams before you do this, so you understand what you are doing.

Disconnect the wire from the EWS to the starter (2.5 SWGE) before you do it as the EWS may not like being reverse supplied.


2.5 SWGE = 2.5sq mm Schwartz Gelb (Black Yellow)
25 RT = 25sq mm Rot (Red)

[Del]

A stationary battery reading of 12.0 V is about 75% discharged. Don't wish to sound in any way patronising but do you think it may simply be a battery going "on the blink" in sudden colder weather. I've been caught out twice in recent years with batteries going - one doesn't seem to get any warning when these modern batteries decide to start dying.

Edit - Apologies - didn't read the post properly and that it still wouldn't crank even with 13V from a slave battery.

[Brian4]

Sounds as if it is could be an immobiliser problem ,have you another key to try.

Read somewhere try locking the car with the remot and then unlock it again and then try starting.

[pingu]

Sounds as if it is could be an immobiliser problem ,have you another key to try.

Read somewhere try locking the car with the remot and then unlock it again and then try starting.

The immobiliser is after the switch before the starter solenoid, so this would make sense. But, there are so many things that would "make sense", which is why I suggest looking at the wiring diagram and tracing the fault properly. A lucky guess is still a guess. You may be lucky or you may not. The logical approach ALWAYS works.

[Z3M_Max]

I did have this problem and it turned out the battery was fubar'd. Even with a jump from another car it would not turn over. I got another battery and all is well again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DC]

Might be worth a read through:

http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopi ... =5&t=35675

http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopi ... =5&t=38518

Dave.

[peter2b]

When you turn the key do you hear any thing ,click etc if nothing could be the starter has jammed or if only a small click could be a relay that most cars have to turn on the power to the starter solinoid faling that, if you have power(12volts ) on the starter solinoid but its not doing any thing , you have could the problem
Peter2b

[motco]

Either the battery is incapable of delivering sufficient current or the connectors are corroded would be my first port of call. The battery or connectors may be adequate for ancillaries such as dash lights or even headlights, but not for the very current heavy starter, and a second battery will not be able ro make it up through skinny jump leads. Jump leads as supplied by the likes of 'Alford's are not meant start the car but to put sufficient 'face-charge' on a flat battery in the car.

One weakness in my case is the statement by the OP that nothing dims when he tries to start the car. Therefore I prescribe a sharp whack to the starter casing with a medium hammer to free-up the armature/brushes in case they're stuck. Obviously don't hit it hard enough to break something!

[billz]

I would go battery. Just because you have 13v doesnt mean you have enough Amps to crank and turn it. You could always read what the standing amp of the battery is with a decent multi meter or battery tester. I had this problem i even charged the battery over night and next day was exactly the same, bought a new battery never had the problem again. Sometimes its the simple things that cause the biggest headaches

[gookah]

I would say it's an immobiliser/key/barrel problem.

If the starter was stuck the lights would dim, because the solenoid would then send all the current from the battery to try and unstick it, that would be like trying to start your car in gear.
The no-click means the solenoid is not coming in to even supply the starter motor, which is why the lights won't dim whether or not you have a full battery or a jump starter connected.
Last time I had all those symptoms it was the chip in the key and the loop around the key barrel would not read it. Used spare key and all was good.
I would say Pingu has the best advice, follow that and bypass both a key or immobiliser problem in the EWS module/key barrel loop

Mind you, the lack of a reply probably means he has already done it and is driving around merrily.... and we are all wasting our time posting possible cures.

He was on here yesterday, and could have shared any fix with someone who may have the same problem and sees this thread....
at least give us an update.

Come on Janijo.... reply!!

[janijoeli]

Thank you all for your great help and advice! Even though I've been quiet for the past month or so, be sure it is very highly appreciated. This has to be the friendliest, most helpful forum I've ever come across.

Unfortunately, in the past month (or actually few months), real life has happened and Giorgio has been just sitting in the garage, and I haven't had any time to try to fix it. I will try to find some time before new years.. However, it is -12 degrees celcius in the garage at the moment so working on Giorgio doesn't sound too appealing. I'll need to get a gas heater.

[motco]

I would say it's an immobiliser/key/barrel problem.

If the starter was stuck the lights would dim, because the solenoid would then send all the current from the battery to try and unstick it, that would be like trying to start your car in gear.
The no-click means the solenoid is not coming in to even supply the starter motor, which is why the lights won't dim whether or not you have a full battery or a jump starter connected.
Last time I had all those symptoms it was the chip in the key and the loop around the key barrel would not read it. Used spare key and all was good.
I would say Pingu has the best advice, follow that and bypass both a key or immobiliser problem in the EWS module/key barrel loop

Mind you, the lack of a reply probably means he has already done it and is driving around merrily.... and we are all wasting our time posting possible cures.

He was on here yesterday, and could have shared any fix with someone who may have the same problem and sees this thread....
at least give us an update.

Come on Janijo.... reply!!

I broadly agree but it does not necessarily follow that a starter that's apparently stuck/jammed will cause dimming or draw any current at all. I had one that seemed to have a dead segment on the commutator, drew no current at all, and if tweaked with a spanner on the back end of the shaft, would then work normally until it stopped in that dead spot again. However, the absence of a click does suggest the solenoid is either goosed, or it's not receiving any energising pulse. Reluctantly, for the OP, I cannot argue against the immobiliser suggestion beyond asking why it would fail, ever?

[Robert T]

The electronics in the Z3 seem to be sophisticated enough not to try to crank the car if there is insufficient juice in the battery. A completely dead battery results in silence. One which is not quite flat will resulting in a clicking noise. The simplest test is probably to connect a second battery to the jump start terminals and see if the car will start. If it does, then it is almost certainly the battery.

Regarding the immobiliser, if you have BMTechnic, then go into the EWS module and use the live screens there to look at the "Internal" status of the immobiliser. It will tell you if the ignition is unlocked or not. Have a look at my article on INPA in the knowlegdebase for details: http://www.zroadster.net/forum/viewtopi ... 42#p332641

I would not expect to see any error codes logged for a low battery.

Cheers R.

[gookah]

The simplest test is probably to connect a second battery to the jump start terminals and see if the car will start. If it does, then it is almost certainly the battery.

- Tried jump starting as the battery was only 12.06V (voltage was way over 13 when connected directly via the under bonnet terminals to another idling car).

Alas, none of the above made any difference.

[pingu]

The simplest test is probably to connect a second battery to the jump start terminals and see if the car will start. If it does, then it is almost certainly the battery.

- Tried jump starting as the battery was only 12.06V (voltage was way over 13 when connected directly via the under bonnet terminals to another idling car).

Alas, none of the above made any difference.

Instead of jumping with another battery, try swapping for one that is known to be good. Really duff batteries can act like a sponge and absorb the battery juice needed to start the car.

What was the cranking voltage? I know that it didn't crank, but what did the voltage drop to when you tried?

[janijoeli]

I FINALLY had some time today to try to fix this problem. I tried to rule out a faulty battery by swapping it to a known good one... Although the voltage on the good one had also dropped to around 12v. It's been -10 to -20 celsius here for the past week or so... Batteries don't like cold weather.

Anyway, when cranked with new battery, same problem. Voltage didn't drop at all. I will try again tomorrow after battery has charged full.

However.. I used BMTechnic again to check the error codes, and this time there was an error about EWS module not responding. Not sure why there was no such error earlier, if the module was already buggered when this problem first occurred. Also I cannot read the EWS menu on INPA at all, again EWS not responding. At the moment this looks like a problem caused by faulty EWS.

Tomorrow (or whenever real life doesn't come in the way of hobbies), I'll try cranking with a full battery, and if still nothing, I'll follow pingu's advice to bypass EWS to rule out faulty starter.

Thanks again for all your help and advice!

[pingu]

It doesn't sound good. If the voltage didn't drop, that indicates that the fault is not with the battery or the starter.

From your profile, you have a 1998 car, so this should be the correct wiring diagram

http://www.porterbility.co.uk/Files/PDF/e36z3_98.pdf

Checkout page 1240.0 for the starting circuits.

It's a wiring diagram for the USA models, so your car might not have the clutch inhibitor switch (mine doesn't).

Recheck the fuses. Take them out and test them, don't just do a visual check. Top tip, put them in the other way round to show that you have checked them .

6135.0 is the EWS II circuit diagrams. I would bridge 3 to 1 on the EWS II. This would mean the current would go straight from the start on the key barrel to the starter solenoid and it would bypass the transmitter module and the immobilizer control module. If it turns over, but doesn't fire, you will have ruled out the battery and the starter. Personally, I don't think it will run, but if it does, I'd consider this as a permanent solution as the alternatives could be difficult and expensive.

Keep us informed.

[janijoeli]

Problem solved! ....to some extent.

I re-checked the fuses, and lo and behold, fuse 31 aka "Electronic Immobiliser" fuse had blown. This explains why I didn't see any error codes about EWS when I first diagnosed the problem when all fuses were okay, and why there were error codes about not being able to connect to EWS now.

I changed the fuse and attempted to connect to EWS with INPA, but got some kind of serial connection error message. I then attempted to start, no cranking or even a click, fuse blew immediately.

I changed the fuse again, and this time I was able to connect to EWS! It was full of error messages, which I cleared, and also cleared errors from ECU. Then attempted to start again... And the engine burst to life!

So either EWS burns its own fuse when in a certain error state (unlikely), or there is an intermittent problem I haven't found yet which causes the EWS to misbehave and occassionally burn a fuse.

Whatever the case, thank you all for your valuable input - I would be still scratching my head without your help! Thank you.

If the problem occurs again, I'll keep you guys updated...

For reference, here are the errors from EWS:

[swamper]

well at least its running..good stuff