Taken for a ride - advice please

tomtj30 · Post by **tomtj30** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 09:23

Sorry for the lengthen e-mail, but I find myself in a situation and need some help. Someone 'saw me coming' I think.

OK, it looks likely that I've been taken for a ride by the dealer from whom I bought my Z3. Having had company cars for 20 years, I've missed a lot when buying this privately. I also tend to look for the good in people, so am an easy sell if I'm keen on something. I'm looking for some advice on what I might do next.

I bought my Z3 on April 21st from a dealer in Chesham. I was shown MOT certificates back to 2007, and a service book stamped up to 2005. Not great history, but the condition of the car inside and out swung it for me and I filled in the gaps in my own head with explanations that suited as I liked the car so much.

On picking up the car, I was only given MOT certificates for 2010, and the one just completed for 2011. On complaining, they said that the old ones were still in the MOT station and would be sent on. When they didn't arrive, I rang and was told they were for a different car. Getting very nervous now, I expressed my concern on the missing history, but was reassured that I could get the old history on line once the V5 came through. The V5 has arrived, and the history looks bad.

- 2005 (5/7/05) - Mileage 54,200 : Serviced at ASPI cars and stamped

- 2006 (16/5/06) - Mileage 52,534 : MOT - As well as lower mileage, Big Eye opener, advisory saying VIN number on Bulkhead is different to that on Dashboard. On checking, so it is, just the dashboard VIN had been hidden by a parking ticket!! The VIN number on the bulkhead matches the Service book ID. The dashboard VIN is for a car built 3 months later.

- 2007 (14/5/2007) - Mileage 55,049 : MOT - Pass, no advisory.

- 2008 (15/5/2008) - MOT expires, no MOT reported until 2010. Perhaps it had one under the other VIN, but I can't check on line. Car sold to previous owner on 1/7/08, so must have had an MOT. I guess these were the ones described by the dealer as the ones for a different car.

- 2009 : no history

- 2010 (30/4/2010) - Mileage 60,084 : MOT passed no advisory

- 2011 (20/4/2010) - Chesham MOT station 'X' : MOT abandoned. Chesham MOT station 'Y' - MOT passed. Did Oakleigh garage not want to get involved due to different VIN's?

So what do I do and where do I stand. Do I :

- Contact dealer and attempt to get money back? Where do I stand, caveat emptor and all that?
- Try to contact the previous buyer for some more details?
- Get an AA check, reassure myself car is OK and just enjoy it?
- Is the car legal and could I ever sell it?
- What's the worst that could have happened to this car, and what's the mot innocent explanation?

Thanks for any advice you can give me.
Tom

hornel Z3M · Post by **hornel Z3M** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 09:33

There is no doubt about what you should do. Take the car back and ask for a full refund immediately and if any problems arise tell them you are reporting them to Trading Standards. There are plenty of Z3`s aroung for sale and nice genuine ones, so there is no real shortage. You will have big trouble selling on and would probably only get a fraction of what you paid for it, if anything. Stand up for your rights.

motco · Post by **motco** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 09:48

As above and if there's any argument invoke the Sale of Goods Act via Trading Standards. Is this 'dealer' one with premises or a lay-by vendor? If the former you should have no problems getting a refund; the law is on your side.

Brian H · Post by **Brian H** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 09:49

Hi Tom,

Sorry to hear of your troubles, I am not in a position to answer the questions legally but the question below may have a valid explanation.

tomtj30 wrote: VIN number on Bulkhead is different to that on Dashboard. On checking, so it is, just the dashboard VIN had been hidden by a parking ticket!! The VIN number on the bulkhead matches the Service book ID. The dashboard VIN is for a car built 3 months later.
Tom

If for some reason the dash board has been changed over it may just be that the VIN sticker was not changed over (changing the dash could be purely cosmetic, change of interior colour etc.). Changing the VIN sticker is a delicate operation and the original sticker can easily be damaged. For piece of mind you could try and get a print out of the car specification from a BMW dealer (called Vehicle Specification Enquiry), this will let you know the full spec of the car when sold.

Good Luck, I hope you get this sorted soon.

billz · Post by **billz** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 09:49

Same here, get trading standards involved asap, as if they are not then yes you might get your money back but then they would sell it onto another unsuspecting trusting person, do you want that. So no matter what the out come is get Trading Standards involved, i would also see about consulting a solicitor just in case.
bill

Mike Fishwick · Post by **Mike Fishwick** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 09:54

Sorry, but I doubt if the Trading Standards Office would be interested in a lack of history for an old car.

What they are interested in is whether or not the car is roadworthy, and if the dealer had breached any legal or contractural undertaking.

The important thing is - is the car roadworthy and in good condition? IF it is, live with it and stop feeling cheated.

tomtj30 · Post by **tomtj30** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 09:58

I don't have a good feeling about this as I suspect these guys know the law much better than I do and they are probably in the clear. Of course I will consult Trading Standards, though evidence of being actively misled is probably critical and I suspect all I have is circumstantial.

As you say Mike, I may just have to get an AA report done to satisfy myself that it is roadworthy and get on with it. Very frustrating though, my 'pride and joy' has just become a hunk of metal.

Mike Fishwick · Post by **Mike Fishwick** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 10:13

Yes - all cars are hunks of metal, but if you like the car, it becomes something else.

Get on with driving, polishing, and enjoying all aspects of owning a Z3, and in no time at all the feeling of having been lied to will vanish into the corners of your memory. All salesmen lie - most no longer know the difference between truth and fiction.

The more you drive it, the greater the bond you form with the car, and the less painful it becomes to spend money on it. After 11 years of ownership, and 12,000 miles the Red Zed is part of the family.

Your only real problem are the different VIN codes, and it is here that a BMW dealer should be able to help, by providing printouts of the original purchase history for both numbers. Wait until you have this before approaching the dealer - but do it quickly.

You should also have a chat about the different numbers with your local police station. They may even find that the car has been stolen and cloned.

TitanTim · Post by **TitanTim** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 10:26

Mike Fishwick wrote:Sorry, but I doubt if the Trading Standards Office would be interested in a lack of history for an old car.

What they are interested in is whether or not the car is roadworthy, and if the dealer had breached any legal or contractural undertaking.

The important thing is - is the car roadworthy and in good condition? IF it is, live with it and stop feeling cheated.

Sorry disagree with you there Mike, Trading Standards will be intersted in a dealer that is possibly selling dodgy cars, clocking and cars without matching VIN numbers and I'm sure the Police would be too. There might be a plausible honest explanation but the fact the dealer said the MOTs were available, then they weren't, then when checked the mileage wasn't adding up and mismatching VIN numbers sets the alarm bells ringing. You have to ask yourself what else is wrong with the car if one was delve a little deeper.

I would be back onto the dealer and wanting my money back smartish and threatening trading standards etc, yes its a PIA but traders shouldnt be allowed to fleece buyers. There is always going to be niggles at the back of the mind that this Zed is a duffer, so best get rid and and a refund and find one with an honest history.

Tim.

Mike Fishwick · Post by **Mike Fishwick** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 10:43

I completely agree Tim - I had not spotted the comment about the two VIN numbers when first reading the post - I only noticed the lackof the promised history.

The matter of the VIN on the 'bulkhead' (the plate on the inner wing?) agreeing with the service book may be the sign of both having been removed from a crashed car, and then attached to a stolen car. Sounds dodgy.

I'm sure that there is a VIN code stamped into the body somewhere - maybe under the plastic shield at the base of the screen - anyone have any ideas on this? This would absolutely prove the VIN of the body. Again - a dealer could help with this, but a trip to the local police would be my first port of call, for a check on both numbers.

A dealer should also be able to provide the serial numbers of the engine and gearbox for each VIN.[/url]

TitanTim · Post by **TitanTim** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 10:59

The VIN number is displayed in the base of the windscreen under the wiper blade passenger side, on facelifted Zeds. Not sure oh pre facelift Zeds,

Tim.

Brian H · Post by **Brian H** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 11:16

TitanTim wrote:The VIN number is displayed in the base of the windscreen under the wiper blade passenger side, on facelifted Zeds. Not sure oh pre facelift Zeds,

Tim.

Yep it is the same on pre-facelift cars.

tomtj30 · Post by **tomtj30** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 11:45

Yes, that's where the parking ticket was slid in-front of.......purchased 7 days before I bought the car.

Does anyone know where I can find the engine number to see if this matches either of the VIN's?

Tom

Althulas · Post by **Althulas** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 13:45

Just did a quick google while on break and found reference to being found on the side of the block, hope that vague snippet can help.

TitanTim · Post by **TitanTim** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 13:52

tomtj30 wrote:Yes, that's where the parking ticket was slid in-front of.......purchased 7 days before I bought the car.

Does anyone know where I can find the engine number to see if this matches either of the VIN's?

Tom

Hmmmmmmm unusual place to put a ticket as the VIN no. is right at the base of the screen, most people either put ticket on the dash or stick it on the side window.

Gather your evidence ASAP and get your money back, sound like sharks to me

Tim.

snoops · Post by **snoops** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 14:57

tomtj30 wrote:Does anyone know where I can find the engine number to see if this matches either of the VIN's?

Tom

TRY THIS LINK

Personally I'd be inclined to contact the police and explain you think you've bought a dodgy car, they have all the resources available to them to make all the checks/comparisons and give you the best advice on the way forward.

Hope it works out okay..

Hard Top · Post by **Hard Top** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 15:34

snoops wrote:Personally I'd be inclined to contact the police and explain you think you've bought a dodgy car.

Yep, and if its been nicked, say goodbye to the car and your cash.
This will not affect the dealer that sold you the car, as they will plead innocent.

MickJ · Post by **MickJ** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 15:37

Before going to the Police I would go back to the Dealer and ask/demand your money back due to the mis-match of VIN numbers and also the mileage going backwards at one stage, threaten them with Trading Standards, legal action whatever just try anything to get your money back, because if you go to the Police and if it turns out it belongs to someone else you will lose the car and your money, but as said do it quick!

pingu · Post by **pingu** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 16:24

Are you a member of a motoring organisation (AA or RAC)? If you are, get them involved.

VIN locations that I know about are

1. on dashboard left side (label)
2. on right wing in engine bay (label)
3. on bulkhead at rear of engine bay (stamped) - this is the important one. Confirm that it hasn't been tampered with, or cut out of another car and welded in.
4. on boot under number plate (label)

Also, all plastic parts on the car are date stamped. The dates will be approximately the same (+/- a couple of months only)

tomtj30 · Post by **tomtj30** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 16:41

Thanks for the link Snoops. Very helpful.
Unsurprisingly given the situation I find myself in, I can't read any information on the Engine Block. I suspect it's been 'rubbed away'. Might be wrong I suppose. Tomorrow could be a difficult day. Here's hoping for a good result one way or another.

snoops · Post by **snoops** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 17:12

tomtj30 wrote:Thanks for the link Snoops. Very helpful.
Unsurprisingly given the situation I find myself in, I can't read any information on the Engine Block. I suspect it's been 'rubbed away'. Might be wrong I suppose. Tomorrow could be a difficult day. Here's hoping for a good result one way or another.

No problem, wish you luck whichever way you choose to go, always lots of varying advice available, always well meaning.

I can see where folks are coming from about the police involvement, maybe it's your trump card if the dealer doesn't want to know? can't imagine the dealers would want a police car on their forecourt whilst other prospective buyers are wandering around.

tomtj30 · Post by **tomtj30** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 17:17

After some deliberation, I have decided that I'm not willing to handle stolen goods and I'm not willing to pass the problem onto someone else. Call me stupid, but I've contacted the police and will await a visit. Hopefully no theft will have been involved and I'll just be back in a dispute with the dealer.
Thanks all for your advice. I'll keep you posted.
Tom

OXO · Post by **OXO** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 17:23

You've just chosen the worst option. If the car is stolen, you will lose your money, as it will be returned to the correct owner.

If it's not, then you will have pissed off the garage, and they won't be disposed to help.

tomtj30 · Post by **tomtj30** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 17:37

Soap opera continues......you'll love this. One part of the story I forgot to mention was I range the dealer this afternoon, and got very short shrift and lack of interest. No sooner have I contacted the police I get a call back from them saying they will give me a full refund. AAAAGGGGHHH!!!!! Hope the police take their time to call back

Either way I'll be in the market for a new Z3 soon. What a performance and some lessons learned.
Tom

Brian H · Post by **Brian H** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 17:42

Glad you have got it sorted, get the car back the dealer and your money back in the bank ASAP.

tomtj30 · Post by **tomtj30** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 17:54

Police visit cancelled. Sneaking out of work tomorrow to return the car.
I really hope I'm not leaving somebody else with the problem, but the smell of the readies is too alluring.
Tom

GazHyde · Post by **GazHyde** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 17:55

Wow Tom,

Just got home and read this thread... What a mess. You were so chuffed with your car, and it's a real shame... It looked a cracker too.

I really hope you get this sorted quick, and get yourself another Zed!

Gary.

tomtj30 · Post by **tomtj30** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 18:08

Hi Gary, I'm already excited about the search. Anna slightly less so after this performance.

She'll come around in time.

freds dad · Post by **freds dad** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 18:15

Glad to hear its almost sorted but I take it you will asking for a full refund plus compensation because if you happened to mention this on certain forums or social networking sites I'm sure it would affect the dealers/ dealers reputation, and he wouldn't want the local media involved neither.

Or you could just name and shame them!

pingu · Post by **pingu** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 18:29

freds dad wrote:Or you could just name and shame them!

Don't do that without absolute proof as you and the website you post on may be liable for any libel damages.

pingu · Post by **pingu** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 18:33

post deleted

TitanTim · Post by **TitanTim** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 18:37

Glad to hear Tom, lets just hope they do actually reinburse you. Soon as you have your money back I would still go to trading standards, sounds like this retailer needs a chatting too. They could be innocent and just didn't do any checks on the car themselves but to me sounds like too many cover up stories from them.

Tim.

DC · Post by DC » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 18:45

Don't forget you are probably dealing with with dishonest liars, don't let your guard down yet as it's not over till you get the money back in your bank account.
I would most strongly advise you not to return to the garage on your own, please take a friend to witness what is said and be wary what you may be asked to sign and of walking away with an unsupported cheque in your hand having handed the car back .
Sincerely hope all goes well.
Dave.

G2JRP · Post by **G2JRP** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 19:22

Even if the police were involved and the car was stolen, the garage has sold you a stolen car so should refund your money.

I would get my money back as per the offer from the dealer and then follow up your previous conversation with the police.

Hope tomorrow goes well, let us know.

domross · Post by **domross** » Sun 05 Jun, 2011 19:28

Agree strongly with DC...make sure you got the money back before you hand the car over...if you paid by debit card (or even better credit card) they can perhaps refund on that?

tomtj30 · Post by **tomtj30** » Mon 06 Jun, 2011 21:52

The car has gone and money has been credited to my card. Could take a couple of days for me to see this according to my bank. The garage took the issue seriously and I'm pleased with the response. Thanks to everyone for their help and advice.

Now back in the market for an Atlantic Blue 2.8, beige leather, power hood, air con, heated seats, cruise control, DAB+ stereo, Hardtop fixings, FSH, 80k miles or less. Not asking much am I

Tom

sidtheranger · Post by **sidtheranger** » Tue 07 Jun, 2011 15:57

tomtj30 wrote:The car has gone and money has been credited to my card. Could take a couple of days for me to see this according to my bank. The garage took the issue seriously and I'm pleased with the response. Thanks to everyone for their help and advice.

Now back in the market for an Atlantic Blue 2.8, beige leather, power hood, air con, heated seats, cruise control, DAB+ stereo, Hardtop fixings, FSH, 80k miles or less. Not asking much am I Tom

That's excellent news Tom - Next time I would recommend getting an AA/RAC inspection. Mrs Sid did this when she bought her Alfa GT and had all sorts of things fixed by the dealer prior to driving away.
Good luck with your search in any case.

GazHyde · Post by **GazHyde** » Tue 07 Jun, 2011 17:28

Well done Tom,

Let's hope you get a perfect one soon so you can come out on a cruise!

Gary

Jonttt · Post by **Jonttt** » Wed 08 Jun, 2011 00:37

tomtj30 wrote:After some deliberation, I have decided that I'm not willing to handle stolen goods and I'm not willing to pass the problem onto someone else. Call me stupid..........

I call you an honest man

Glad it worked out for you.

Without knowing all the facts but form what you've posted I would say the dealer knew what they had done and when they realised you had sussed it out quickly, for the presumed price of the car it was not worth it for them to get involved with the hassle, hence the refund.

If it were me I would check that they do not put the car up for resale and if they do I would definately report it to trading standards and the police.

BimBeema · Post by **BimBeema** » Wed 08 Jun, 2011 11:02

Have only read this thread today! What can I say that hasn't already been said. This sounded like a complete nightmare, the sort of thing anybody buying a used car has nightmares about!

Glad to hear you have this sorted out though.

Lessons learnt should be - to look for tell tale signs (matching vin numbers) not only on the car but also with the MOT certificates, check MOT mileage and dates against servicebook mileage and dates. check body panels and engine bays for warning signs such as poor paint jobs, poor or uneven fitting, damaged trim, weld signs. Also always worth doing an AA HPI check for peace of mind!

This might help for next time:

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/ca ... ction.html

zroadster.net

Taken for a ride - advice please

Taken for a ride - advice please

z

Re: Taken for a ride - advice please

History

Hunk?

Re: History

VINs