Big probs with my baby.

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Tue 26 Apr, 2005 16:18

I posted a topic a while back about a very poor service & knocking noise coming from my engine....
Well it's been back at the dealers for a while now while they had a look at it. I have just had a phone call to let me know the damage. The long and the sort of it is I now have an estimated repair bill of £14,500.
I've been told the bearing shells have worn and disintegrated leading to crank damage and an engine full of swarf.
Not a happy bunny as you can imagine.
Don't think I'll be making it to the Lakes cruise this time!
I don't know what to do about it. Its only done 250 miles since its last service. (38,000 miles total) £14.5K seems a little steep too.

Anyone got a spare S50 engine?

Robin · Post by **Robin** » Tue 26 Apr, 2005 16:29

Damon
Sorry to hear about your ///M.
A reminder that 100bhp per litre sometimes comes with a heavy price tag !
Do you have warranty ?
If not & you don't get any goodwill contribution from BMW, I guess the only thing left is use a good non dealer network BMW specialist who's labour rates are likely to be a third of dealer network BMW garages.
That would at least significantly reduce the cost of engine rebuild.
Frankly at 38k miles I think BMW should contribute towards the repair cost. Good luck.

Phil · Post by **Phil** » Tue 26 Apr, 2005 16:36

Wow - that's some estimate.
Shows that a warranty is essential with these beasts - hope you've got one.

ZZZEMMCO · Post by **ZZZEMMCO** » Tue 26 Apr, 2005 16:42

1.Which Dealer.??
2.From most reports its the S54 Engines that have the Shells probs.
3.Have you got a Warranty.
4.How long did it take for the Dealer Report to be advised.
5.Was your service / s at Dealers or Indy,s .
6.Have you contacted BMW GB Customer Relations.
7.Do you have a service record.

Grubbins · Post by **Grubbins** » Tue 26 Apr, 2005 17:07

Hi, really sorry to hear about getting an estimate for £14.5k (that's more than I paid for my Z). You asked about engines - I posted a link a while back to a breakers and remembered they had an ///M http://autos.blue-sock.com/clients/3/it ... alue=98639 Maybe worth contacting them.

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue 26 Apr, 2005 19:18

I'd hope you get some goodwill from BMW provided they serviced it. £14.5K seens way too steep, even for a new engine???

Hope you get things resolved with help from BMW.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue 26 Apr, 2005 20:00

Damon,

£14.5k

At that price you'd think they would at least grease you first. Man that's steeeeeeep.

My condolences. 38k miles total and 250 since the last service. Either someone seriously abused your baby at some point or BMW have some explaining to do.

Keep us updated.

Zmeagol · Post by **Zmeagol** » Tue 26 Apr, 2005 22:43

You could involve BMW but your argument is really with the dealer. I think you should involve an independent automotive expert who will be willing to write a report and if necessary attend court.

Your previous thread at viewtopic.php?p=36769 provides an interesting preview to the problem and could be used by you if you need to get into legal arguments.

Tim

mich · Post by **mich** » Wed 27 Apr, 2005 03:12

I agree with zmeagol, also it is very suspicious, if it was going OK until shortly after the service I would put the problem on the repair shop, if they are worth their salt they should do the utmost to find out what went wrong, its obviously a lubrication problem, was it overheating?? was it the correct engine oil, my sympathy, but don't let them blame you, and put the pressure on them.

mich · Post by **mich** » Wed 27 Apr, 2005 04:18

Sorry to put two postings together, but how have they arrived at the price?? they must have removed the sump, how much further have they gone, have they removed big end caps and main brg caps, how about the oil pump(I don't know what type it has) they must have gone at least this far to even guess at a price and if so they would know what caused the failure, and this should be communicate to you, as I said keep the pressure on them and be a bl@@dy pain in the ...... You could mention that about 2000 owners are watching this space with interest, but perhaps keep that as a last resort, good luck

stu · Post by **stu** » Wed 27 Apr, 2005 07:14

that repair bill is outrageous. They're trying to get rid of you or rip you off. You could get a fully prepped race spec engine for shed loads less than that and it'd be more reliable and more powerful than a standard S50 and it'd be built by craftsmen.

I'd ask the Service Manager to take you through that quote. It's really shocking.

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Wed 27 Apr, 2005 08:50

Thanks for your support.
I feel slightly less sick today. Still not good though. I simply don't have the money to pay.

The dealer in question is Victoria BMW in Milton Keynes.
The quote they have given me is for a replacement short engine @ £8,565.96 + VAT part no. B11.00.1.405.257. They have also added a surcharge of 1713.19 + VAT presumably for my knackered crank. The rest of the bill is other bits and bobs plus labour. They have also indicated that this is only an estimate and will probably go up!!

Yes, my car has full BMW service history. It has been maintained with no regard for cost.

I do have a warranty. I got it as part of the group purchase with you lot. It only has a max payout of £5000 and will NOT pay for a worn part if the claim is in the first three months. Besides I view it as BMWs problem and I think they should pay 100%. I'm trying to keep said warranty people out of the picture for now (at their request) to try and get BMW to stump up as much as poss.

So far Victoria BMW Milton Keynes have removed the cross-member, sump & oil pump at a cost of £352.5 + VAT to me. I specially negotiated this rate. They initially wanted to charge me for 4.5hrs !! (they also want £1102.5 + VAT to put it back on!)

I have been in contact with BMW UK who will pay 40% towards the parts as a "good will" gesture. (i.e. they've removed their profit margin). This amounts to £3,500 removed from the bill.

Still feeling sick!
Thanks again for support.
Any advice is gratefully received.

Robin · Post by **Robin** » Wed 27 Apr, 2005 09:08

Damon
You mentioned in the 1st thread that you thought they'd overfilled with oil at the last service. Did you mention this to them again ?
Seems a heck of a coincidence that big end shells wore out just 200 miles after a service

If they did overfill it to the point where the crank throws hit the oil your pump is then trying to pump foam instead of pure oil. Might also have played havoc with crank pressure & blown a seal.
If that is not the cause then one wonders about a manufacturing fault, as end shells should be good for over 100k miles.
BTW how kind of BMW to offer to remove their profit margin on the parts

Kenny · Post by **Kenny** » Wed 27 Apr, 2005 09:41

!*!*! That was one of the reasons I didn't buy an M... Great engines but if they go wrong..Ouch!!!

Hope everything works out..

BigDave · Post by **BigDave** » Wed 27 Apr, 2005 10:26

All i would say is "Don't give up". It's a huge amount of money bt is only peanuts to BMW. It may involve a lot of agro on your part but play every card you can think of, maybe even Watchdog.
Stick with it mate. Will keep my fingers crossed for you.
Dave

Fixer · Post by **Fixer** » Wed 27 Apr, 2005 11:57

Damon

If you joined the RAC don't they have a free legal service with the membership.

Try them they might just fight BMW for you.

Fixer

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Wed 27 Apr, 2005 13:38

RAC legal help it isn't free (you have to pay extra if you use the service) but advice is. I have already spoken to them.
Also the warranty I have provide a legal support team. I'm about to discuss it with them too. I think I want to get the RAC to independently view the car. At the moment the only people that have viewed the car are possibly going to have to pay for it. Obviously their answer will reflect this.

As yet I haven't mentioned to them about the overfilling of the engine oil , again.

One of the biggest hassles is being at work. All of these things have to be sorted during working hours. My boss isn't happy.

steve'z3'ski · Post by **steve'z3'ski** » Wed 27 Apr, 2005 14:42

Sod the boss, the "real" world is much more important....
i.e. your car

Like the rest have said, try every possible angle and don't end up just doing whatever because it's less hassel.....

No retreat.......No surrender

Fixer · Post by **Fixer** » Wed 27 Apr, 2005 14:52

Shame on your boss

he doesn't drive a Zed then.

Things must have change with RACs cover.

They appointed a local solicitor for me and paid all the costs, I just sat back and let them do it all.

Fixer

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Wed 27 Apr, 2005 15:08

Thing is I've just been offered a second hand (58,000 miles) engine, from an M3, fitted for £3,500
I don't want to do it, but thats a 1/3 of what it will cost me for BMW to sort out.
I'm contemplating cutting my losses.

Also I've just spoken to someone that used to work at a franchised BMW dealer. He has told me that the price they have quoted may be for a complete engine as they wouldn't want to tie up the ramps & workshop space for as long as it would take to do the short engine. Goes some way to explaining the quote don't you think? (obviously this is hearsay and I don't know it to be fact)

Caving in would aslo mean that I'd get my (ex) baby back on the road sooner.

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Wed 27 Apr, 2005 15:11

Thanks for that info. Fixer. It may be worth another call.
Obviously I'm only going by what the lady said on the end on the phone. Perhaps I don't have the best type of cover.

BTW did you win?
Was it against BMW?

Zmeagol · Post by **Zmeagol** » Wed 27 Apr, 2005 15:23

Our washing machine developed a serious fault a year or so after the manufacturer's warranty ran out. We approached Which (Consumer Association) and their angle is that the paper warranty is nothing more than a pre-agreement that the manufacturer will pay for repairs within a certain timeframe without arguments. In reality you are often protected for far longer than that, it's a question of what is reasonable. If it's deemed reasonable to expect a washing machine to last at least three years, then the fact it's out of the one year warranty doesn't matter. In our case we got a full repair, no charge.

The same applies to cars which explains why BMW is already talking of discounts off the parts.

Tim

Fixer · Post by **Fixer** » Wed 27 Apr, 2005 15:30

BTW did you win?
Was it against BMW?

No it was against another motorist that cave me his company details then his company denied the fact that he ran into me.

Yes I won and had all the work done at the dealers.

We did pay for the top cover with RAC and after there help we will carry on doing so.

Wish you luck

Fixer

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Wed 27 Apr, 2005 15:43

I must stress that BMW UK have offered their contribution as a "good will gesture" and that they haven't admitted any responsibility. My comment about them taking off their profit margin was purely that, a comment.

I think they should contribute more. Or at least the dealer should contribute too.

Freezed · Post by **Freezed** » Wed 27 Apr, 2005 17:03

Damon

What an awful situation, my comments would be:-

1) Preumably if the engine was overfilled with oil, its still like it now and therefore this condition is down to the dealer.

2) I would seek advice from other dealers/mechanics/organisations as to whether or not overfilling can damage your engine, and if yes its back to the dealer to sort at no cost to you.

3) If no, then I'd have an independant organisation identify what HAD gone wrong, ( if possible) and move on to BMW accordingly.

A friend of mine picked up his 3-series from the dealer after its service, and on the way home he started to hear funny knocking noises, but his oil light didn't come on. He was near home and when he checked the oil level there wasn,t any!

He contacted the dealer who refused to accept liability but my friend didn't give in and persisted and insisted that they sort it.
They did in the end 2.5k cost to them (so they said)!
It wasn't until then that he was told that someone probably forgot to put the oil in!

DON'T GIVE UP EASILY

Hope this helps

Trev

stu · Post by **stu** » Wed 27 Apr, 2005 18:23

That other engine may be a blessing as you could get it changed and then sell the one from your car or get it repaired and recover a substantial amount.

Just a thought (and I understand your boss' concern too).

Fixer · Post by **Fixer** » Wed 27 Apr, 2005 18:38

M3, fitted for £3,500

I wonder how much BMW would want to release your car?

Fixer

Ludo · Post by **Ludo** » Thu 28 Apr, 2005 10:35

If your car was serviced religiously by official BMW dealer and you have all the proofs, stop bothering about using the phone.

Put copies of all the bills you have together, get yourself a lawyer if you insurance doesn't offer you one, get him to write a letter to BMW on your behalf asking for full cover and send it with the paper proving they received it (i don't know the name, sorry).
In yuor letter mention that if within 3 weeks you don't hear from them you'll be bringing this matter to court. Should speed up the process.
Don't settle if you think they are in the wrong and draw up an estimate of the cost/day of not having you car, they should cover for this too.

Was your engine stock? no remapp or intake?

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Thu 28 Apr, 2005 15:06

Just to keep you informed...

Victoria BMW Milton Keynes have very generously offered to knock 10% off the labour charge.

They have also told me that the £1713.19 surcharge shouldn't have been passed on to me. Its a surcharge to Victoria by BMW. Don't really understand myself !

All of this has happened because BMW UK have contacted them after we've been speaking to a very helpful man at BMW UK customer services.

It really makes me wonder if Victoria have the faintest idea what they are doing. I don't really want to let them near my car again. I don't have a choice unless I go non-BMW.
Total price has now come down to around £8000 if my maths is correct.
Still not good!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu 28 Apr, 2005 18:34

Damon,

This still stinks to high heaven!

38k miles with full BMW service history is no age for an engine to die like your has. Couple that with only 250 miles since the last service an not an inkling of trouble beforehand points the finger very squarely at that service being at the very heart of the problem.

Don't give up, we are all behind you.

Bodger · Post by **Bodger** » Thu 28 Apr, 2005 19:18

e mail watchdog@autoexpress.co.uk and watch BMW and your dealer shower you with gestures next week after publication of the article. I know how it works as I am in the same game as them. The surcharge you mentioned on the engine is between the dealer and BMW and is nothing to do with you. Stick with it. Good luck.

321bhp · Post by **321bhp** » Thu 28 Apr, 2005 20:40

maybe im reading this wrong,if you had a warrenty with the rac,why arnt they paying

please put me straight if need be
(bearing shells have worn and disintegrated leading to crank damage and an engine full of swarf)
did the warrenty not cover this happening

Fixer · Post by **Fixer** » Thu 28 Apr, 2005 20:49

321

I think Damon joined up with RAC to get the car towed back to the dealers.

Fixer

321bhp · Post by **321bhp** » Thu 28 Apr, 2005 20:55

ohi see,so the car wasent covered by any kind of warrenry then,when i got my m the warrenry given was crap,so i got a proper one,to many crap warrentys about,people are getting ripped off

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Fri 29 Apr, 2005 08:08

I do have a warranty. I bought it as part of the group buy from this website. Paid extra for franchised dealer repairs too. Wish we didn't now. Else I'd never have taken it to Victoria BMW after the terrible service they have provided me with.
The warranty has a max. payout of £5000 too. The only trouble is it won't pay out for anything to do with wear in the first 3 months. To my mind a bearing shell can not wear out on a 38,000 mile top of the line BMW M series engine. Anyone back me up on this? There must be a reason it failed !
I have to say that the person we've been speaking to at Warranty Direct has been very helpful. Think they may try and dodge paying this though as its potentially a massive bill.
Besides I feel the blame lays squarely on Victora BMW, Milton Keynes. I believe they should pay.

Who knows... perhaps they started it without oil in it.

Again,
Thanks for support.

Robin · Post by **Robin** » Fri 29 Apr, 2005 09:53

Damon
This unfortunate experience of yours has reminded me how high the stakes can be on warranty claims.
I'm going to read the small print in my warranty, which in my case is a BMW one.
Need to safeguard against them having any opportunity to wriggle out of coughing up.

For example, if I do oil services myself as I have done in the past so as to save myself £100, which I obviously can make a better job of than the knuckle scrapers that did your oil service, will I be invalidating my BMW warranty in so doing & therefore risk losing thousands in the event of a claim ?
I need to check.
Meantime best of luck with pursuing all avenues such as 'BBC Watchdog' maybe or the legal route if necessary etc etc

c_w · Post by **c_w** » Fri 29 Apr, 2005 11:08

Damon wrote:
Who knows... perhaps they started it without oil in it.

Again,
Thanks for support.

Quite possibly, then realised their mistake and filled it up but would be too late. Whilst these M engines don't seem to be the last word in reliability, an engine with that mileage should be in full health and shouldn't fail like that. Even driven with abuse wouldn't cause this kind of failure (not in such a short time anyway) as its some kind of mechanical failure, either lack of oil, oil pump failure, oil contamination etc.

M Blur · Post by **M Blur** » Fri 29 Apr, 2005 14:03

What I can't understand is taking out a warranty that pays up to 5K on an M.. those engines, whilst fairly robust, are very expensive to fix or replace with new parts and a second hand engine will be anywhere from 2-5K if you can get hold of one and you have no guarantees on that either.

I'm with Stu - find a old engine and get them to re-build from ground up and it'll still cost less.

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Fri 29 Apr, 2005 14:40

I am currently trying to source a new (2nd hand) engine. I always knew it would be the cheapest option. To my mind I shouldn't have to though. Catastrophic failure after 38,000 miles with full BMW service history!! Sound acceptable to you?

I've just phoned the dealership indicating I wanted to buy a new car. I inquired as to the guarantee. I was told it is unlimited mileage up to 3 years old. After that you can buy a BMW warranty up to 100,000 miles. Don't s'pose anyone knows what that would have been 5 years ago??

The warranty was purchased as part of the group buy through this website. The first time I found out about the £5K limit was when I read the policy documents.

Has anyone ever swapped an engine in a Roadster? I'm sure I should be able to use one from an M3. Someone has mentioned voltages to me, but I suspect he just wants me to buy his engine fro ma Coupe.

I have managed to find a reasonably priced engine from an M3 on the shelf at a scrappies. I need to know if it will be a simple swap. The engine is a 326S1.

Can anyone tell me what engine my 99 M Roadster has? (I know its an S50B32) This is the first time I've heard this 326S1 business.

M Blur · Post by **M Blur** » Fri 29 Apr, 2005 15:14

No it's not fair

not one bit - I'd say you should chase the dealer/BMW through legal channels. In this case as an agent for BMW the 2 should be jointly and severally liable anyway. I'd also say BMW GB has soem degree of vicarious responsibility for the action of the agent (dealer) so if they have been negligent when servicing then you can probably go after BMW as much as the dealer. Best thing is to find a solictor who has experience of motor induictry cases and see what they say.

If you want your car back on the road in a hurry then you need to look at the second hand market (try FAB) and enlist an engine builder.. hopefully then you can then win compensation back to recoup costs. You can also make your claim to your warranty for the 5K since you can demonstrate that the BMW channel is not open to you. You should be able to drop in any S50-B32 engine whilst retaining the sensors and looms of your existing set-up. I'd get the head crack tested or at least a compression test done before you buy. But there are guys who have looked at the earlier 3l engine but watch out for insurance..

In fairness - the warranty people should be coughing up the 5K and pursuing BMW themselves if there is any doubity. If you can bear to have the car off the road for a while longer then I'd make the claim against the warranty and pass the matter over to a solictor and let them send the next letter to BMW. The solictor will also be able to advise. Ideally you want BMW to agree to replace the engine for 5K and the warranty people to cough up. This would be the route I'd take first and having had problems with 8LUR I'm gald I stayed within the boundaries of the dealer and warranty. It was torturous but ended up paying out only £200 for 4-5 weeks worth of work.

Also remember to not accept any offers as 'full and final settlement' unless you are prepared to accept tham as just that.

Best of luck & without prejudice
JB

Ludo · Post by **Ludo** » Fri 29 Apr, 2005 15:19

Don't settle at all, as Mblur said, get some lawyer who is used to deal with this kind of issues and get him to work. I am sure your insurance would have somebody competent. Might cost you a bit but will save you on the long run.

Don't settle for anything short of a new engine. Serviced ok, no tuning, go after them, they'll have to cover it.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri 29 Apr, 2005 15:36

IF the dealer overfilled the engine by about 50% this is very likely to be the root cause of the problem.

Such gross overfilling means that the crank would dip into the oil so generating a lot of frothing. This means air bubbles, which will obvioulsy not be much good for lubrication purposes. the result will be that the oil film in the oil pump and all bearing surfaces will rapidly break down, causing rapid wear throughout the engine.

This means that your argument is with the dealer, not BMW(GB) on the basis of poor workshop practice - which they will never of course admit.

As I keep telling people, a BMW dealer stamp is of less use than one from the post office, which is both cheaper and can be used to post a letter with!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri 29 Apr, 2005 15:44

It is possible that frothing oil was the caluse of the knocking frm the top of the engine, as it could have promoted rapid wear of the cam lobes, and also caused the VANOS pistons to oscillate - all without proper lubrication.

It is therefore possible that a short engine may not be the complete answer to your many problems.

Can you now prove that the oil level was way toohigh after the service? If not, your chances of a free engine are about nil.

nick32 · Post by **nick32** » Sat 30 Apr, 2005 16:17

I think you should do what Ludo says, get a solicitor and get the make them pay for it...

M Blur · Post by **M Blur** » Tue 03 May, 2005 08:37

nick32 wrote:I think you should do what Ludo says, get a solicitor and get the make them pay for it...

Get an independent mech (AA/RAC or BMWCCGB) to look over the engien before the dealer removes the evidence..

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Tue 03 May, 2005 09:17

My problem if proof. Without it I will have to pay. I also don't want to increase the vast cost to me with investigations and legal fees.
I can't prove they overfilled it as the sump has now been off. I would also have difficulty proving overfilling caused the damage. Some people even recommend overfilling for track days / high revs.

As it stands even if the warranty pays out the max. £5000 (which I doubt it will) The cost to me would still be £2700. Warranty Direct are also saying it may not be a covered as it could be due to wear. They don't pay for wear in the first 3 months of the policy.

The cheapest option is an engine swap.
Think I'll get the RAC to look at it first though. Its going to cost me more money though.

Fixer · Post by **Fixer** » Tue 03 May, 2005 11:06

I think every body reading this will say don't give up but then were not facing the bill at the end of it all.

I would certainly try the RAC Legal Services they were very good when I used them and its only a phone call.

RAC Legal Services 0870 5 533 533.

Fixer

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Sat 21 May, 2005 14:56

Warranty Direct have been to look at my car now. Or rather they've sent "an Independent Consultant Engineer". They are saying his report says...
"in the absence of any mechanical reason for lubrication failure, that the damage to the engine could only be explained, by the vehicle being run at some period with a low oil level, causing aeration or the oil supply"

"This would make the failure due to a pre-existing condition, which would not be covered by your policy, it is also noted that the failure is wear related which would also not be covered in the first 90 days of your policy."

Don't think he knew it was serviced 250 miles before.
I like the use of the words "could only be explained" =guessed.
At least they are "sorry that we are unable to assist you on this occasion"

Robin · Post by **Robin** » Sat 21 May, 2005 15:34

Aeration of oil can also occurr if OVER filled because the crank throws can hit the oil & froth it.
Looks to me like your engine damage may have been caused by the garage overfilling with oil.

ZZZEMMCO · Post by **ZZZEMMCO** » Mon 23 May, 2005 09:22

Damon--Am trying to CONTACT you.Sent you a PM on Saturday- may have some help for prob.

zroadster.net

Big probs with my baby.

Big probs with my baby.

MORE info Req-------

Shocking

Don't give up!

Pragmatism

hi

hi

I'm going to read the small print

Overfilling

Another Chilling thought

Warranty Direct won't pay.

Calling Damon!!!!!!